$1/2 NL Holdem question (1 Viewer)

[Waynejr83]

hey everyone,

Just looking for some input from my cash game experience yesterday. 8 handed table, not much action ( standard raise was 10-12 pre flop). I'm the button and there are 4 limpers.....I raise to 17 with QQ and get 3 callers. Flop comes 9c Ks 8h
Everyone checks to me........ What's the best move here?

 

[slisk250]

Any information about these villains?

 

[Waynejr83]

I'm seat 2 , older female in seat 5 extremely tight, seat 6 new to the table but a regular and seemed to play tight aggressive, the wildcard was the older Asian male in seat 9. I could easily see him calling with variable of hands. Was putting him on a k/9 hand or even 9/10 suited

 

[DrStrange]

I don't know why Hero would read the older Asian guy with K9 or T9 so early in the hand. Perhaps you mean after the hand was over?

Hero is not clearly behind. Not happy about that king, but it isn't an ace. Depends a lot on Hero's table image, the number of villains, the nature of the villains and the stack depths, but I often bet at flops like this one - say $40. Not always, I see checking as ok but I think a half pot sized c-bet is a little better.

I bet/fold $40.

Of course we know this isn't going to work out -=- DrStrange

 

[Leonard]

I agree with Dr Strange. Stack size in particular is critical. Also (and I don't know if this really applies) but I would avoid larger than average raises with premium hands. If you do this with a wider range, especially on the button or against multiple limpers, that's fine.

 

[Waynejr83]

Based on the hands and calls I saw the Asian guy play while at the table. He played premium hands very aggressive. Three and four bets.

As for the hand play out. I checked and the next card was a K

Checked around to me and I checked again. I believe missing the flop bet was crucial. The river was a 9. Checked to the Asian male and he bet 45.....I thought for a minute or two and folded. Showed the people to my right and left my cards. Many people at the table tried getting him to show or say what he had but he didn't. Later when I was leaving he mentioned to me good fold but I guess I'll never know.

I appreciate the opinions, just wanted to see what others thought.

 

[bergs]

I agree with Dr Strange. Stack size in particular is critical. Also (and I don't know if this really applies) but I would avoid larger than average raises with premium hands. If you do this with a wider range, especially on the button or against multiple limpers, that's fine.

Leonard - I'm just interjecting to ask that you not bring these critical thinking abilities to BBOTB. We're really relying on you to make massively poor decisions in roll-threatening games and then show us unforgettable pictures that make us squirm uncomfortably. We have all our roles to play. Ok, back to the topic at hand.

 

[bergs]

I would've bet the flop and if called, I would've bet the turn too. The K isn't an awful card as it makes it less likely that a villain holds one. River isn't a great card, villain could've easily had a 9 and just boated if so but the strength you showed earlier in the hand probably gets you a check through to showdown here.

 

[DrStrange]

One of the reasons to bet a king high board, if you are playing tighter, is that the king hits Hero's range well. Hero could easily have AK or KQ and be way ahead of much of villain's range. If Hero always checks when he misses the flop, observant villains will catch on and learn when to fold their losers and bet their winners.

 

[Waynejr83]

One of the reasons to bet a king high board, if you are playing tighter, is that the king hits Hero's range well. Hero could easily have AK or KQ and be way ahead of much of villain's range. If Hero always checks when he misses the flop, observant villains will catch on and learn when to fold their losers and bet their winners.

Great point. I really didn't think of it that way. Thanks for that. The kid to my right believed he missed with A high but based on the play from the hour or two I was there, I really think he had me beat.

 

[Jimulacrum]

This is all assuming reasonably deep stacks (at least 100 BB effective).

I'm betting that flop when it's checked to me. I like DrStrange's size of $40, a little less than 3/4 of the pot. Everyone checked, and the board is wet but not soaking wet, so we should be able to take it down pretty often if no one hit a king (or if any weak kings out there feel too threatened to play to showdown OOP). The only real draws are straight draws around the 89, and we have 2 of the outs that the best straight draw (TJ) needs.

But suppose we check behind on the flop, and then it checks through again, since that's what happened. I'm definitely betting the turn for about the same amount. That second king plus the lack of action means our QQ is even stronger than it was on the flop. We should not give our opponents another free card. We also have the bonus that all this weak checking and the paired king on board may make an opponent think that a super-low-equity hand like JJ, TT, or 9x is worth a call.

But instead you checked and gave Asian Dude a free shot to improve his bare 9, which he did. Or maybe he didn't. He may have sensed all the weakness and decided to make a move of his own. Sadly, we'll never know. (I tell people "Good fold" sometimes when I bluff them off hands. It is a good fold. I won because of it.)

 

[moojersey]

I agree mostly with the above advice. With 3 callers there is a possibility you are behind, but you can also be way ahead. Likely calling hands can have a K, but they don't HAVE to.

Flop can be played either way depending on your stack and style. If you are deep I'd fire at the flop. Best way to win a pot is to bet at it. I don't mind your check behind on the flop. But you better not fold to one bet, check call is fine.

I do however HATE the check behind on the turn. You have to fire there especially since you checked flop. Seems like villains hated the board as much as you. They gave up checking 2x. I think a bet wins OTT.

OTR is tough. You can't really put anyone on a hand because of all the checking.

 

[moojersey]

I don't think anyone is checking a K twice to you.

 

[Jimulacrum]

OTR is tough. You can't really put anyone on a hand because of all the checking.

This is a great example of why aggression is such a key element in poker, and hold'em in particular. Betting clarifies your opponents' hands.

In this case, the 9 hit the river, and a 9 would probably be within a reasonable villain's calling range after the turn, so you'd have a tough time calling whether you had bet the turn or not. But that's a fairly rare outcome, not such a great example. Instead of focusing on this one result, think of where you'd be if any one of the other 43 cards had hit.

Unless you spike a queen, you're lost if someone bets into you because you didn't clarify their hands at any point after the flop. Now you're stuck reacting with a bluff-catcher in an awkward spot. You're up against 3 opponents who could have anything they would've played preflop for one raise—small pocket pairs, connectors that hit an ugly gutshot, whatever.

Compare that to betting the turn: Maybe everyone folds. Winnah!

Or maybe Asian Dude calls with a 9, and you make money every time he doesn't hit that 9 on the river. You may even be able to squeeze in a thin value bet on the end if you know your man. Or maybe he check-raises you, and you can snap-fold QQ with a smile on your face.

Aggression, dude. Used judiciously, it gives you a lot of information and a lot more chances to win.

 

[Waynejr83]

i didnt have a deep stack at the table. Overall I think a feeler bet on the flop or a bet on the turn could have won me the pot, I believe the river card gave him the boat and saved me money. I did stil have a good session and will continue to learn. Thanks to everyone for their viewpoints and opinions.

 

[Trihonda]

They don't always have to have IT

 

[inca911]

Villian likely makes the same river bet with just an Ace. Definitely needed to bet flop to know where you might stand.

 

[abby99]

Showed the people to my right and left my cards.

Never show your cards to anybody without a solid reason. You're giving away too much information, especially with this hand.