$1/2 PLO: OOP in bloated pot (1 Viewer)

jbutler

Royal Flush
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
10,669
Reaction score
10,774
Game is my typical Sunday two way game: $5/10/15 Tahoe/Palin (5-card O8; use 2 or exactly 5) and $1/2 PLO. I had been running hot and am up really big and have specifically run hot against the particular main villain in this hand. He thinks I'm a LAGgy player and at least for the night he's right. I had been raising something like 50% of hands to $10 (house rule: $10 open even with no limpers for easier flop/turn/river math) and was facing basically no opposition preflop. Most of these guys need to get to the flop before they put money in.

Relevant previous hand from maybe an hour prior: I had raised with 5678 single suited, gotten 3-bet by villain, flatted, and bet/3-bet to get it in with him on the K74r flop. He had dry aces with a backdoor flush, we ran it three times and I won 2.

This hand: I raise 9872hh from UTG and he 3-bets from the BTN to $70. He has about $340 to start the hand. One call from the blinds, I call, and two other players from MP call. One caller has about $200 behind after the call and the other caller has about $500 after the call. I cover all players.

Thoughts on each:

MP1 is one of the worst players you'll ever see, but his leaks are preflop hand selection and general passivity. He will never bluff. He will occasionally - as in 2 or 3 times a night - bet with what is obviously a losing hand, but will never bet with the intention of getting folds. MP2 is semi-unknown. I've played with him in hold em games, but this is his first night in the Tahoe/PLO game. He says he's played PLO before, but this is his first round of PLO so I really don't have any idea of his PLO skills. His large-ish stack came from being dealt a pat boat in Tahoe and scooping a huge pot where no low came in, but two other players made nut and second nut backdoor flushes. Capping preflop, flop and turn 4 ways and getting a couple bets in 3 ways on the river builds a pretty big one. During the entire Tahoe round he was confused by the betting, constantly trying to raise the wrong amount, but I take that more as a sign of unfamiliarity with limit games than general incompetence. Finally, BTN is a very good hold em player, but has shown a propensity to overvalue big pairs in PLO and to be a bit unaware of the importance of the side cards in AAxx/KKxx hands.

Flop ($360): 762r with one heart.

SB checks. My play?
 
Top and bottom plus open ended in a bloated pot where only one other guy has more than the current pot... I don't see a reason to not just get it in now. Letting someone else throw out a smaller bet could ultimately commit too many hands to the pot for my taste.
 
Ugh fold pre. As played, pot repot repot and shoot yourself in the head when you brick out all three times (assuming you run it thrice).

I agree with this. The 2 makes our hand pretty mediocre. As played we need to get it in.

Against a guy likely to be 3-betting AAxx/KKxx hands only, you fold pre here? If the argument is relative position versus possible other preflop callers, I can sort of get on board, but strictly by hand value versus the raiser, I'm calling here a lot.
 
With 987 and a deuce dangler single suited I fold all day, unless it is limped to me in the big blind. Swap out the 2 and give me a T,J, 6, or even 5 and I'm in like Flynn.
 
Against a guy likely to be 3-betting AAxx/KKxx hands only, you fold pre here? If the argument is relative position versus possible other preflop callers, I can sort of get on board, but strictly by hand value versus the raiser, I'm calling here a lot.
I don't think this is a hand we have to open from UTG. We can easily get in trouble post flop against better rundown type hands.
 
Okay the consensus seems to be mangled preflop, but with flop must get it in. Is it clearly a bet/call or is a check/raise a reasonable consideration?
 
Okay the consensus seems to be mangled preflop, but with flop must get it in. Is it clearly a bet/call or is a check/raise a reasonable consideration?
A pot bet is effectively an all in across the board (less a little extra from the guy sitting on 1.5x pot)... per the check raise line are you really expecting anyone to bet a quarter of the pot here? If "pot" is a popular word around the table there is no check raise, just check calling for stacks. If small bets are the norm do you really want the next guy in line putting out $75? Anyone calling before you raise isn't going to find a fold later and while our hand is pretty I'm really not wanting everyone to stick around...

Looking at everyone else's stacks this pot is big enough as-is to be happy if the table folds around. Get it in now.
 
while our hand is pretty I'm really not wanting everyone to stick around...

Definitely agreed on that point. In this game people tend to bet less than pot quite a bit.
 
Check call is odd here. You will likely brick a turn, then what? Check fold? You are either in or out at this point. In truth only an AK or 6 will induce vomiting on the turn based on OP. AAxx has already been shown to crack earlier due to a similar hand. I'm potting and happy with a round of folds. We have "flip outs" (12) so just show authority and let the chips fall where they may (I felt dirty typing that).
 
Check call is odd here. You will likely brick a turn, then what? Check fold? You are either in or out at this point. In truth only an AK or 6 will induce vomiting on the turn based on OP. AAxx has already been shown to crack earlier due to a similar hand. I'm potting and happy with a round of folds. We have "flip outs" (12) so just show authority and let the chips fall where they may (I felt dirty typing that).

Preflop thoughts?
 
If I'm playing well I fold to the 3-bet pre. If I'm not playing well, I do this in rapid succession:

1) Pot, pot, pot, repot, all in.
2) Beg to run it twice
3) If I'm lucky bink one of them
4) I'm I'm unlucky bink none of them
5) Turn to you and drunkenly slur "was that spew or am I just running so bad?"

tl;dr - fold pre
 
If we start the choices at the first action, insta-fold these openers UTG. If not, fold to the preflop 3-bet. This kind of hand is more of an RIO liability than anything, especially OOP.

But once we're on this flop, there's not much choice left with $360 in the pot and $430 effective against our deepest opponent (and SPR < 1 against everyone else). Stacks are going in the middle here whether we like it or not.

We don't want a ton of action and shouldn't be too upset if everyone folds. There's quite enough in the pot already that we should be happy to scoop it uncontested.
The best way to try to achieve that is to pot it, pot it good.
 
Calling 3b pre and trying to CR flop is fine if you are heads up. Now you hit a near top pot in a bloated pot; need to bet.
 
Feels spewy if we pot here. 76, 22, 66, 77, 54, 89 all have us either crushed or are drawing really live and probably getting odds (particularly if they have wraps).

What turns are good for us? 7 or 6.

What turn are bad for us? 2 is absolutely horrible as it counterfeits us badly versus overpairs. 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 10 all bad for us. J, Q, K, A could make sets.

I hate this hand.
 
Feels spewy if we pot here. 76, 22, 66, 77, 54, 89 all have us either crushed or are drawing really live and probably getting odds (particularly if they have wraps).

What turns are good for us? 7 or 6.

What turn are bad for us? 2 is absolutely horrible as it counterfeits us badly versus overpairs. 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 10 all bad for us. J, Q, K, A could make sets.

I hate this hand.

All these points lead me to want to get the money in ASAP. Question is whether we can get called by worse. I'm not sure we can. But if we check does villain bet his overpair if he has nothing else with it? I dunno.

So as usual I did the dumb aggro thing and just potted. Folds to overpair loving villain who calls with his KKQQ. Ran it three times, won two. Fish on heater continues (apart from getting annihilated at the $5/5 game at Borg this weekend for much more than I won Sunday).
 
All these points lead me to want to get the money in ASAP. Question is whether we can get called by worse. I'm not sure we can. But if we check does villain bet his overpair if he has nothing else with it? I dunno.

So as usual I did the dumb aggro thing and just potted. Folds to overpair loving villain who calls with his KKQQ. Ran it three times, won two. Fish on heater continues (apart from getting annihilated at the $5/5 game at Borg this weekend for much more than I won Sunday).

I think that, with the pot this big, we can include some overpairs in Big Villain's range, especially if he's spewy once he gets into spots like this. He almost couldn't have had a more perfect hand for you, with the pairs crippling improvement potential.

More importantly, though, we're not folding anyway, and we want basically as many other people to fold as we can get to fold. Potting it might even frighten an OOP nit with 22, 66 or 67, bare draws that duplicate or dominate ours, etc. The pot is big enough that we should maximize our chance of winning it, and I think potting is the best move for that goal.

And if we do run into a set or a fat draw, we get reinforcement as to why we shouldn't play big pots with 9872 OOP.
 
Question is whether we can get called by worse. I'm not sure we can.
I missed how deep one of the callers was playing, but BTN has $270, one caller $200 and another $500 left with $360 in the pot. The smaller stacks are getting great odds to chase if you pot, so I think you can def get called by worse. If not, they are making a mistake by folding too much, which is not bad for us either. The bigger stack can let go of some hands the others should call with, but I don't see him betting those hands either, so c/raising won't help any.
 
I would try not to put in 35bbs preflop with this trashy hand, but as played I just bet out on the flop. It is too likely AAxx and other random one-pair hands will check this on the flop 4ways, and basically all turn cards will suck for your hand, and make us have to give up unless we hit a straight or a boat.

fold utg
fold to 3bet
bet flop
 
Preflop thoughts?

Well...

I had been running hot and am up really big and have specifically run hot against the particular main villain in this hand

Heater ain't gonna put itself out so unlike everyone I support the call based on this alone. If you have tilt tendencies to chase your own money after a single big loss (uh-hem) then watch yourself after the hand unfolds. So yes, I'm fine with the pre as long as I have control after the post.

When true heaters are in effect, they are the most euphoric moments in poker/gambling. Whats even better is that everyone at the table is convinced you have a horseshoe up your butt and will start cultivating sloppy decisions (whether its folding when you shouldn't or jamming to "get you" when they have marginal holdings). Its a 'ting a glory'.
 
Heater ain't gonna put itself out so unlike everyone I support the call based on this alone. If you have tilt tendencies to chase your own money after a single big loss (uh-hem) then watch yourself after the hand unfolds. So yes, I'm fine with the pre as long as I have control after the post.

When true heaters are in effect, they are the most euphoric moments in poker/gambling. Whats even better is that everyone at the table is convinced you have a horseshoe up your butt and will start cultivating sloppy decisions (whether its folding when you shouldn't or jamming to "get you" when they have marginal holdings). Its a 'ting a glory'.

This is the real secret, right? Once it starts, the table starts lining itself up to make "bad decisions" back at you. I've been on both sides of this phenomenon, and it has always been a great night of poker to watch/play. Post-flop control is the key to making this last, and controlling the table's response to your run-good.
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account and join our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Back
Top Bottom