$2/$2 5-Card PLO Hand #1 - Jam this River with top set? (1 Viewer)

[Moxie Mike]

Context: $2/$2 5-card PLO game at Hollywood Casino in Columbus Ohio. Game is scheduled to start at 2 pm - but really doesn't begin until enough regulars show up.

I sit with about $340 that I racked up from a dry-ass NLHE table I tried to stomach while I waited. The PLO game is clearly populated by a handful of LAGs, an ornery dude 2 seats to my right and a couple of fish. All in all a decent lineup to start the session.

Initially, the game was tight post flop with a decent mix of limped pots and raised pots but I don't think there was a single 3-bet pre the whole time I was there. In the first hour, the dynamic was pretty much whoever connected best with the flop would bet full pot and most of the time everyone would fold. Many pots did not go to showdown in the early going.

I developed a tight table image and dragged a few pots firing out when people clearly missed - gradually running a stack up to about $550 when the hand in question began. Hero is in the 4-seat.

After 3 limpers ($5 min) Hero is dealt in the Cutoff. Hero makes it $20 to go... the button folds, as does one limper. One caller is a fish in the 8 seat; the other player is the ornery guy in the 2 seat. Effective stacks are $450.

Flop comes . Check to Hero, who bets $60. 8-seat folds; 2 seat calls pretty quickly. Pot: ~$190.

Turn is the . Opponent checks, Hero pots. Opponent calls pretty quickly by casually flinging 2 black chips in. Pot: ~$570.

River is the . Opponent is grumpy and begrudgingly checks - Hero can't tell if he's trapping. Hero's action?

Tagging @Rhodeman77 @Anthony Martino @Hornet

Spoiler: Results

HERO was relieved that the Villain didn't bet and reflexively checks back instantly. "Top set", Hero says out loud looking while plucking the two aces from his hand to show his opponent.

Villain mutters something like 'so many outs'... verbally reveals that he held a set of 3s and a club draw while glancing at his hand, then the board, then his hand again desperate to find some type of winner. Finally after what seemed like 2 minutes but was probably only 15 seconds his hole cards go face down into the muck like a losing betting slip in the parking lot of a race track.

I thought it was interesting to discuss because the topic of turning your hand into a bluff in PLO doesn't seem to come up all that often. In this case, I checked it back out of reflex without really thinking it through. Maybe there wasn't actually that much to think about.

 

[SpaceMonkey420]

Check

 

[JMC9389]

Check and take the showdown value.

 

[SpaceMonkey420]

Almost Zero low equity. I fold this 90% of the time pre flop.

 

[Beakertwang]

Almost Zero low equity. I fold this 90% of the time pre flop.

I believe it's high only.

 

[Rhodeman77]

straight and flush both come in on the river. If Grumpy had a set of 9’s he probably makes a bet before the river. He is most likely acting to induce a bet from Hero on the river. I’m checking back and taking my showdown value.

 

[JMC9389]

Almost Zero low equity. I fold this 90% of the time pre flop.

Believe this is hi only unless I misread something.

 

[Moxie Mike]

I believe it's high only.

Believe this is hi only unless I misread something.

It is.

 

[Moxie Mike]

straight and flush both come in on the river. If Grumpy had a set of 9’s he probably makes a bet before the river. He is most likely acting to induce a bet from Hero on the river. I’m checking back and taking my showdown value.

Yeah that's the conventional thinking. But is there any merit to trying to move him off a straight since the flush has gotten there? I mean - it's possible he hates the 3rd spade as much as we do.

 

[BarrieJ3]

Calls $60 on that flop, $200 on the turn.

There’s less than $200 behind on his turn call, I’d think set of 9s just shoves to try and realize fold equity vs draws.

$200 call on the turn with double flush draw on the board - he’s either behind and not calling your river jam, or ahead and calling/cry calling dependent on his hand.

Long term I think outsmarting yourself here and doing anything besides checking down is a loss. Check and turn em over. When he flips over the wheel somehow, just smile and take his money later.

 

[Highli99]

This seems like a pretty standard spot. Villain has played the hand terribly whether he has smaller set or flush. I'm pretty sure all worse hands fold to a bet, so not much value in betting.

 

[Machine]

Yeah that's the conventional thinking. But is there any merit to trying to move him off a straight since the flush has gotten there? I mean - it's possible he hates the 3rd spade as much as we do.

If he is calling on a wrap to make a 5 or 6 high straight on the flop you're not going to move him, and even if you can, it seems like a risk most of the time, not to mention if you're buying in for 400, his SPR has to be close if not lower than 1 at this point.

Personally I'm not above potting the turn, but I think a proper play would have been to check it. Top set is great but you have to fade a spade, the only way anyone calls on the flop is with a spade draw or a deathwish ...

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Yeah that's the conventional thinking. But is there any merit to trying to move him off a straight since the flush has gotten there? I mean - it's possible he hates the 3rd spade as much as we do.

It’s more likely he has a non-nut flush or a straight and is calling any bet. I doubt a straight is folding for $70 in that big of a pot when your aces are face up.

 

[JustinInMN]

Yeah that's the conventional thinking. But is there any merit to trying to move him off a straight since the flush has gotten there? I mean - it's possible he hates the 3rd spade as much as we do.

Yeah I am not seeing it.

The only two straights I see are 42, which made the wheel on the turn and didn't bet/check-raise or 87 which went backdoor and I just don't see the fit on this flop. Even 987 combos feel too weak to call flop unless they contain spades. Maybe exactly A987 is possible?

I just don't think too many straights exist and I don't think any flush draw that called flop and turn is folding the river. So betting as a bluff doesn't make sense.

And betting for value only makes sense if you think villain is going to payoff with 99, after an action killing river.

Sometimes the straight forward play is straight forward for a reason.

 

[SpaceMonkey420]

I believe it's high only.

People play that? Lol JKJK. Details!

 

[JustinInMN]

To amend a couple comments.

I don't think straights are impossible. Part of the nature of Omaha, especially the five card version, is that with the extra down cards, pretty much everything is possible in an opponents hand, it's just a question of frequency. I could certainly see a villain getting here with something like A234 or A245, but I just don't think it's frequent enough to make targeting this hand with a bluff worthwhile. (Especially considering the is only one ace unaccounted for.) Even though in total fairness to @Moxie Mike point in post #9, such a bluff may work on this particular hand on this river. That said I think weak spades are going to be far more frequent, and players with weak spades that called two substantial bets on the flop and turn aren't going to fold this river.

And betting for value only makes sense if you think villain is going to payoff with 99, after an action killing river.

I should have said 99 or worse, because the argument for bombing this river is if he might pay off as weak as aces-up here. Maybe his frustration is that he overvalues flopped two pair and is now lamenting the flush hitting.

At the risk of stating the obvious villain has a flush or he doesn't. If he has a flush, it was probably as "backup" with a hand he would consider strong (some two-pair-plus or maybe the wheel wrap that hit) that may have just been outdrawn. If he doesn't have a flush, then it's just hard to see what he can pay off on this river that doesn't beat 3 aces. It may specifically be 99. (And unfortunately, one of those 99 combos villain could get here with may well be 9987, which is now a straight. It might also explain his disgust that he hit his gutshot, but knows it's not the nuts.)

Bottom line, unless he's paying off the river super loose, I think bombing the river loses money in the long run. Even though I do think there's some merit in the idea a bluff would perfectly target the wheel wrap that doesn't have the spade backup. I just think that instance is too rare to outweigh how many times you will be met with a crying call from the weak spades.

And we can't discount the possibility that he could have a spade combo here and is indeed trapping.

 

[allforcharity]

Check. I ain't pouring any more money in if any 2 spades beats us and he's got 5 cards to choose from, never mind 4.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Spoiler posted.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Saw the results, and there are definitely opportunities to turn your hand into a bluff in PLO, but this isn’t that time. You have shown down value, and the line you took looks like your hand. Not a drawing hand betting on the come.

Now if the Ace had not been a spade on the board and instead it was the 9s and you now held the dry As I could definitely get behind a river shove blocking the nut flush.

Also, if the river had been a red 6 I can even make an argument for a river shove since you have 88 in your hand to double block 78 and maybe get him off of a wheel. But when the front door flush comes in, take your showdown value because it is more likely to be a trap check than a hand that beats you, but can still fold because of the scare card. There just aren’t enough wheels in his range that aren’t a flush as well. And even if he has the wheel, he may call since he called twice already and he would be getting a great price to catch you turning your hand into a bluff lol.

 

[BGinGA]

Pretty straight-forward to me; check river with top set showdown value.

I think the better question is what does Hero do if Villain puts in a big river bluff when he misses?

 

[Frogzilla]

I don’t really play enough 5 card hi only but I think you might want more relevant spade (K or Q) to consider converting top set into bluff. Maybe it’s never correct to bluff with top set. I don’t know. Villain’s line does seem reasonable for a wheel wrap that came in and you completely unblock it.

my uninformed instinct is good spot to bluff but probably not with this hand. Might be close

 

[Moxie Mike]

I think the better question is what does Hero do if Villain puts in a big river bluff when he misses?

Villain had about $200 left... if he jams what can I beat? There are 5 different straights possibly plus the spades. I probably fold and I was grateful he didn't bet.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Villain had about $200 left... if he jams what can I beat? There are 5 different straights possibly plus the spades. I probably fold and I was grateful he didn't bet.

Didnt you say you started with $340? You should only have about $70 left, which if correct means you probably have to call off given the size of the pot.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Didnt you say you started with $340? You should only have about $70 left, which if correct means you probably have to call off given the size of the pot.

No sir. From the OP:

I developed a tight table image and dragged a few pots firing out when people clearly missed - gradually running a stack up to about $550 when the hand in question began. Hero is in the 4-seat.

 

[JustinInMN]

Pretty straight-forward to me; check river with top set showdown value.

I think the better question is what does Hero do if Villain puts in a big river bluff when he misses?

Vomit and fold probably. But in this case it's going to be tough because the stacks aren't that deep compared to the pot on the river, I might light the money on fire and call.

 

[JMC9389]

Read the spoiler. Thing is, there's no opportunity to turn your hand into a bluff in this scenario. You're not holding the king of spades but you do block nut straight possibilities. Checking back is the right play.

 

[Highli99]

Villain had about $200 left... if he jams what can I beat? There are 5 different straights possibly plus the spades. I probably fold and I was grateful he didn't bet.

Right, villain played the hand pretty weakly.

 

[upNdown]

I’ve only played 5-card online, tournament style, so no expertise here. But I think you played the hand pretty well. That said, your pot on the turn (which was totally necessary) makes it pretty obvious that you have a set of aces. Of course you could also have a redraw to spades. But your hand seems pretty face up at that point. So I’m not sure that would have been a good time to try to turn it into a bluff.

 

[doublebooyah85]

As mentioned, if you had the K spades blocker, and in a deeper game you could bluff.

 

[doublebooyah85]

As mentioned, if you had the K spades blocker, and in a deeper game you could bluff.

But I’m not even sure you could get a winning hand to fold even if you’re deep.

Anything you beat folds, and if we believe villian chases and hits…he’s looking to get it in? I think villian w 3 high flush calls ur jam anyway?

Good check!