Tourney Advice needed for a new poker league with growing numbers (1 Viewer)

Jamaquack27

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Hi all,

New to this forum and love reading the posts and now I need some advice please.

I am starting a new poker league and I expect the first couple of games to have ~10 people but expect that number to reach ~20 after a few games. So I have a few questions about this.

1. I like a deep stack tourney so that all players get a chance to play a while. I would see 200BB to start as the absolute minimum. So any sort of layout for BB and antes would be very helpful with the fluctuation with players. I'd like to keep it the same each game. Aiming for 4.5 hours games.

2. This point is going to kill you all, but I currently only own dice chips....*ducks*. And so I am looking to upgrade to some new chips and I believe I will need at least a 500 chip set, maybe 1000 for future proofing if the league takes off. My group uses a T100, T500, T1000, T5000, T25000 chipset currently. So we would like to keep that chip set. Amy advice or ideas for mid range poker chips would be amazing. I live in Australia.

Any other tips for someone running their first league would be so great. We are playing 10 events with people paying during the season, and then all players who played a minimum of 5 games will be invited to the championship freeroll with a big prize pool and crowned season champions.

Thanks in advance, Jam.
 
Hi all, just wondering whether anyone has any advice for me? Also any idea of a chip set for approximately 200AUD ( I know that's not much and could go more expensive but not by much)

Cheers!
 
I use the same denoms as you and have a game that runs 4.5 to 5 hrs with starting stacks of 21k (10/10/10/1). Here is the blind schedule I use...

Screen Shot 2019-05-26 at 11.13.39 AM.png


The length per round will be determined by how many players you have. I take the total # of chips in play and multiply by .04. This tells me about how big the starting pot will be when the game ends. So, 10 players @ 21k in chips is 210,000. Multiply by .04 and that's 8400. Tourney should end about level 12-13. Take 300 minutes (5 hrs) divided by 12 and you've got 25 minute blinds. Might want to go 20 just to move things along.

This is just one way to run things, I'm sure others will share theirs. Hope that helps!
 
Some suggestions:

A) Set aside a portion of each planned starting stack as an on-time bonus. Say you were planning 150BBs to start, make the stacks 125BBs and the on-time 25BBs. In the long run, this will really help prevent your game from either starting shorthanded or starting late. Can’t stress this one enough.

B) 200BB is a lot. To finish in 4.5 hours you’re going to need a pretty aggressive blind structure, at least if your games play at all like mine.

C) Consider carefully whether you want to allow rebuys and/or add-ons. Rebuy tourneys have a different character, I find, and encourage BINGO play. They certainly can get more money in the pool. But they can frustrate less well-bankrolled players, who aren’t prepared to peel repeatedly.

What we’ve settled on after 10 years of fiddling with options is a modest and optional paid add-on (taken at the first break) of about 10BB for that level, for about 20% of the cost of the initial buy-in. I also allow those who bust before the break to take the add-on as a one time semi-rebuy (small enough to discourage totally reckless play).

D) At least starting out, pay out as much as 1/3 of places, even if the bottom ones are just getting their buy-in back. For example, in a 15-person tourney I might suggest payouts in proportions of 7/4/2/1/1. This will keep players happier initially, as more will get to at least min cash.

E) Consider a bounty chip worth about 10% of the buy-in. This again helps more players at least to get a small rebate when cashing out.

F) I used to include a high hand in my structure, but now just encourage any of the players to collect that on the side if they want. It helps keep the payouts up, and also doesn’t compel anyone to participate. (High hands in my view rarely reward skill, except to the extent that players who last longer see more hands... so I’m not that into it except as a crowd-pleaser.)
 
Some suggestions:

A) Set aside a portion of each planned starting stack as an on-time bonus. Say you were planning 150BBs to start, make the stacks 125BBs and the on-time 25BBs. In the long run, this will really help prevent your game from either starting shorthanded or starting late. Can’t stress this one enough.

B) 200BB is a lot. To finish in 4.5 hours you’re going to need a pretty aggressive blind structure, at least if your games play at all like mine.

C) Consider carefully whether you want to allow rebuys and/or add-ons. Rebuy tourneys have a different character, I find, and encourage BINGO play. They certainly can get more money in the pool. But they can frustrate less well-bankrolled players, who aren’t prepared to peel repeatedly.

What we’ve settled on after 10 years of fiddling with options is a modest and optional paid add-on (taken at the first break) of about 10BB for that level, for about 20% of the cost of the initial buy-in. I also allow those who bust before the break to take the add-on as a one time semi-rebuy (small enough to discourage totally reckless play).

D) At least starting out, pay out as much as 1/3 of places, even if the bottom ones are just getting their buy-in back. For example, in a 15-person tourney I might suggest payouts in proportions of 7/4/2/1/1. This will keep players happier initially, as more will get to at least min cash.

E) Consider a bounty chip worth about 10% of the buy-in. This again helps more players at least to get a small rebate when cashing out.

F) I used to include a high hand in my structure, but now just encourage any of the players to collect that on the side if they want. It helps keep the payouts up, and also doesn’t compel anyone to participate. (High hands in my view rarely reward skill, except to the extent that players who last longer see more hands... so I’m not that into it except as a crowd-pleaser.)

+1 on the 33% payouts. Know your players. Getting your money back in 4th place vs. not cashing means a lot to that player. An extra few bucks to the winner doesn't. Keeps them coming back.
 
I'm happy to send you a spreadsheet that will help you. PM me if interested.

Here is a structure we use. It has 400 BB and is finished is less than 4 hours on average starting with 40,000. Our group averages about 14 players. To make this go another half hour, you could simply make it 500 BB and start with 50,000.

Several factors determine the tournament length. Starting BB is but one of those. Deep stack actually is only a small part of the equation.

There are 5 factors that determine the length of your tournament. Alter one and you alter the tournament time. The 5 factors, in no particular order, are:

1. The ratio of starting chips to the big blind (SC/BB) -- A tournament is deep stacked if over 150 BB, very short stacked at 100 BB. A player is considered to be competitive at 50 BB, short stacked at 30 BB, seriously short stacked at 20 BB, and desperately short stacked at 10 BB. By itself, this is a good guide, but this is somewhat in a vacuum. You have to look at the average blind increases too.

2. Average blind increases – The average of how rapidly blinds go up (most increases should be 1.33-1.6 – 2.0 or higher is considered too high by many players).

3. Length of rounds -- 1 hour or more is considered slow; 30 minutes about average, 15 or less very fast, and under 10, lightning fast. The average hand is about 2 minutes, so anything less than 2 minutes per player at maximum players per table is probably too fast as it doesn’t give every player a chance at every position every round.

Note: Not every group plays at 2 minutes a hand. If the pace is slower, you have to adjust for this. If it takes 3 minutes a hand, your blinds must be 50% longer to end at a particular blind level. Reality is that tournaments need a certain number of hands more than a certain number of blind rounds.

Think about a 60 minute football game. If the average play takes 30 seconds, the game will last about 120 plays. If the average play takes 20 seconds, the game will last 180 plays. Those two are very different. There will be more of everything in the second game – more plays, more yards, more points, etc. Poker tournaments are the same way.


4. Number of players – It takes longer for more players to be eliminated.

5. Total chip count in tournament -- Two different formulas can determine how long a tournament will last. One is when Antes (A), Small Blind (S), and Big Blind (B) added together equals 5% of the total amount of chips in play (T), the tournament will end. This is expressed in several ways, but one is A+S+B = T*.05. A second formula is when B equals 5%, expressed as B=T*.05. My experience is these are good outside parameters and the actual time is likely to fall in between the vast majority of the time.

You could add a 6th factor -- whether you allow rebuys, how many, and when the cutoff time for rebuys ends. That really affects #5. Without a doubt allowing any rebuys affects the length. I've not found a way to accurately measure this if you allow unlimited rebuys and no cutoff time, but otherwise, I think it can be measured, even though it might be challenging to do so.

Here is a structure we use. It is a freeze out that starts with 40,000 (400 BB) and averages about a 58% blind increase. That's fairly aggressive. I use it because my players like a lot of chips and an aggressive blind schedule. This takes 20 players between 4:00 and 4:20 to finish. If you wanted to go to a 4.5 hour playing time average, you would go to 50,000 (500 BB). It takes more total chips when the blind increases are higher. I don't use antes and generally don't like them. I used to use them, but the first time we didn't players LOVED it! But that's a matter of taste.

RoundSmall BlindBig BlindColor Up/Break
150100
275150
312525025Break
4200400
5300600
65001,000Break
78001,600
81,2002,400
91,8003,600100500Break
103,0006,000
115,00010,000
128,00016,000
1312,00024,000
1418,00036,000
1530,00060,0001,0005,000Break
1650,000100,000
1775,000150,000
18125,000250,000
19200,000400,000
20300,000600,000

Hope this helps!
 
3. Length of rounds -- 1 hour or more is considered slow; 30 minutes about average, 15 or less very fast, and under 10, lightning fast.

I’ve settled on 20 minute blinds for the first 6 levels, 15 minutes for the remainder, for a weeknight tournament I’m aiming to wind up in 3.5-4.5 hours. Chops are highly encouraged once it’s down to 3 players, so we can move on to cash... Educating any players not familiar with ICM chops is a help.
 
A) Set aside a portion of each planned starting stack as an on-time bonus. Say you were planning 150BBs to start, make the stacks 125BBs and the on-time 25BBs. In the long run, this will really help prevent your game from either starting shorthanded or starting late. Can’t stress this one enough.

Do this and your games will start on time.

In our rules we say you must be present and ready to play by the 7pm start time. In practice the cutoff for the early bird bonus is first card dealt. This keeps the hyenas off my back if as the host I'm running a couple minutes behind getting everyone bought in, etc.

Here is a link to my league thread. Lots of ideas in there: https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/sunday-night-poker-season-17.35689/
 
IMO spending 200 on a set of chips is a waste of time. Dice chips are ugly but actually functional and durable. If you want to buy chips my recommendation would be to save up more money and get something nicer. On the other hand you can just keep using what you have. Running a 20 person 2 table tourney will probably require 1,000 chips.

These are some chip sets I recommend:
Atlantic hot stamp
http://www.pokerchipsonline.com/stock/atlantichs.htm

Apache Elite
https://www.apachepokerchips.com/product/paulson-elite-poker-chips/

Both of these options are very good quality chips. Bear in mind buying good quality chips will be more durable for ongoing use and they will retain value. If you buy some cheap 200 set they will retain almost zero value over time.

I also recommend KEM cards. Your players and you will love them.

Good Luck!
 
I've got to disagree with Lemonzest here. While these chips are certainly nowhere near the feel and quality of more expensive chips, I think they'll be a huge upgrade over plain-faced boring dice chips, and these are within your budget plus include the 25K denomination you guys use presently:


THESE THREE SETS ARE $0.16/CHIP

https://www.apachepokerchips.com/product/monaco-club-poker-chips/

Monaco_Club.png



https://www.apachepokerchips.com/product/poker-knights-poker-chips/

Poker_Knights.png



https://www.apachepokerchips.com/product/showdown-club-poker-chips/

showdown.png





Or if you can swing it, these Dunes are $0.42/chip

https://www.apachepokerchips.com/product/dunes-clay-poker-chips/

dunes.png




Not sure on their shipping situation with Australia, however, and how much that may inflate your costs. But if I was on a budget of $200 and had the option, I'd choose these over dice chips any day. I wouldn't worry about these chips lack of "resale value", you're not really purchasing them for that purpose, and these should get you through until you're in a situation to spend more on higher quality ones.


- note: another alternative is that sometimes there are sales of used Paulsons from The Chiproom and you could always relabel them. Sometimes those are under $0.50/chip but there's no guarantee when they'll be available. here's a recent one (not sure if any are still available at this point) https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/roadhouse-casino-value-chip-sale-thread.41960/
 
My recollection from a few years back when I was first trying to graduate from dice chips, and binge-watching Hobbyphilic chip review vids on YouTube, was that Majestics and Milanos (both available from Apache) were among the higher-rated budget chips. For about $400 you could get a set of 1,000, and those would hold you a long time until ready to bump up to the next level.

This might also introduce your players to the value of nicer chips. You could then explain why you are going to set aside some small amount from the prize pool per session (even just $1 per player) toward the purchase of a nicer set. In a couple years you’d have enough to make the move.

 

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