All Bomb Pots All the Time (2 Viewers)

[Jimulacrum]

My weekly game is all circus games (Double Board Omaha/Hold'em, a long list of Scarney variants, Dramaha, Dramahold'em, SOHE, and a few others).

Aside from this, there are two things that make the game unusual:

1. All hands are played in a bomb-pot format. Everyone antes 1, and action begins on the flop. Betting is no-limit. (We also play some stud variants and a few other games that use a 1–3 spread limit with a 3-bet cap, but that's a whole other can of worms.)
2. Max buy-in is 20, which is super-shallow for an ante of 1. This max remains the same for the duration of the game.

Any thoughts on strategy considerations for this structure? How should you vary your approach from a more standard structure with blinds and action before the flop?

 

[RocAFella1]

Sounds more like $20 flips

 

[Jimulacrum]

Sounds more like $20 flips

Sometimes it does feel that way, especially when we first get going.

 

[doublebooyah85]

The game can be fun and lively or can be all nits.

I think you should lower your ante to 50 cent atleast…

 

[RocAFella1]

Curious as to the rationale behind $1 bomb and $20 max.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Curious as to the rationale behind $1 bomb and $20 max.

The game used to be 0.25/0.50 Hold'em, 20 max, based on a structure we inherited from a previous host. That low buy-in and shallow structure made sense for his player pool and helped keep sharks (like me, specifically) from tearing up the game too much.

After he left, I started it back up on the same night, but I added optional paid bomb pots (dealer had to pay 0.50 or use an equivalent token to trigger the bomb pot). Bomb pots were such a hit that no one ever calls Hold'em anymore, and every hand has been a bomb pot for like 8 months now. The new host has gotten rid of the tokens and just does the ante of 1 by default.

People have been happy with it. That's most of the rationale. It's a very gambley game, the players have a good time with very few angry outbursts despite the crazy games, and the small buy-in keeps people playing. A couple of the stronger players have suggested bumping it to 40, but it seems like a no-go with the more casual players, so we've stuck with the ante of 1 and max of 20.

I never thought I'd like such a shallow game, but I've been pleasantly surprised.

 

[DrStrange]

Such short stacks should mean jamming anytime Hero hits the flop (or whatever). I'd be playing essentially fit/fold perhaps bluffing if the table doesn't want to gamble.

I wouldn't jump up the buy-in either. There is plenty of variance already in this format.

 

[Jimulacrum]

The game can be fun and lively or can be all nits.

I think you should lower your ante to 50 cent atleast…

I understand the logic here, but at the same time, I think the gambley nature of the relatively huge ante actually serves our casual players very well. Forces people to gamble and doesn't allow the higher-skilled players to sit around waiting for nut/nut to make a play.

The game texture does change as the night wears on and people accumulate bigger stacks. It's not all 20 stacks all night. For some of us, anyway.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Such short stacks should mean jamming anytime Hero hits the flop (or whatever). I'd be playing essentially fit/fold perhaps bluffing if the table doesn't want to gamble.

I wouldn't jump up the buy-in either. There is plenty of variance already in this format.

You'd think so, but it's tough because of the nature of the games we're playing, i.e., they're almost all split-pot with a lot of hole cards.

Most hands, you're likely to hit something on the flop, but is it enough? Scarney variants in particular are tough on this front, and they're a clear crowd favorite. A lot of the time you're doing okay on one side of the pot and drawing totally dead on the other, and it's really easy to be beaten.

Still, you're right that you have to be willing to gamble upfront. There's too much in the opening pot to just abandon it over and over.

 

[ekricket]

My weekly game is all circus games (Double Board Omaha/Hold'em, a long list of Scarney variants, Dramaha, Dramahold'em, SOHE, and a few others).

Aside from this, there are two things that make the game unusual:

1. All hands are played in a bomb-pot format. Everyone antes 1, and action begins on the flop. Betting is no-limit. (We also play some stud variants and a few other games that use a 1–3 spread limit with a 3-bet cap, but that's a whole other can of worms.)
2. Max buy-in is 20, which is super-shallow for an ante of 1. This max remains the same for the duration of the game.

Any thoughts on strategy considerations for this structure? How should you vary your approach from a more standard structure with blinds and action before the flop?

lol they replaced the ante with blinds because it was a pain in the ass to make sure everyone paid them.
Now you guys bring it back. It’s just poker with an ante instead of blinds but with a new name. Welcome to 1880, lol

One advantage of blinds is that it presents a “hurdle” for more experienced players. It’s small, but it’s there.
Antes, or bomb pots, favor the more experienced people that can actually play poker past the flop. On the flip side it hinders them too because the ones that can’t play past the flop just shove all in if they flop top pair or better. No poker after that, just luck.

 

[upNdown]

I’d like to give it a shot.
How many bullets are people typically firing? I would think at least 3-5 would be the norm. Even in crazy variance split pot games, when you see that flop with $19 in front of you and $8 in the pot, you gotta get busy living or get busy dying.

 

[Jimulacrum]

lol they replaced the ante with blinds because it was a pain in the ass to make sure everyone paid them.
Now you guys bring it back. It’s just poker with an ante instead of blinds but with a new name. Welcome to 1880, lol

One advantage of blinds is that it presents a “hurdle” for more experienced players. It’s small, but it’s there.
Antes, or bomb pots, favor the more experienced people that can actually play poker past the flop. On the flip side it hinders them too because the ones that can’t play past the flop just shove all in if they flop top pair or better. No poker after that, just luck.

I will give credit where it's due and say that most of our casual players have grown beyond the point where they see top pair as anything special in games like Double Board Omaha or 3-card Double Board Hold'em.

The hurdle to the more experienced players is a thing I like. It's good for the game. Never cater to the sharks. They'll feed themselves just fine.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I’d like to give it a shot.
How many bullets are people typically firing? I would think at least 3-5 would be the norm. Even in crazy variance split pot games, when you see that flop with $19 in front of you and $8 in the pot, you gotta get busy living or get busy dying.

My average this year so far has been 47. Last year, 52, and the year before that, 62. On a really rough night, I might be in for as much as 200, but that's the exception, not the rule.

Average total buy-in for the night is probably a little higher than that for most players. We have one or two who are in regularly for up to 100.

 

[chippitydoodah]

I’d like to give it a shot.
How many bullets are people typically firing? I would think at least 3-5 would be the norm. Even in crazy variance split pot games, when you see that flop with $19 in front of you and $8 in the pot, you gotta get busy living or get busy dying.

 

[MrCatPants]

We started playing BBA (bomb pot style) for our scarney rounds. it just plays better with people seeing a flop - otherwise it's only mega-monsters in the mitt that are betting.

Re: strategy it just means you can't range anyone, but not much I think that can be done to adjust. Flop is 55x? sure, someone may have quads. Non-bombpot with agressive pre-flop action, very unlikely a scarney hand with 55xxx sees a flop. Basically, if the flop favors cards one "shouldn't have" in the game (e.g. high number cards in dramaha zero, face cards in dramaha 49) it's much more likely someone connected and you have to move forward (for half, maybe) with caution).

The one drawback of this approach is with draw games. it's helpful to get a hand or two out if at a full table to ensure you don't have to go into the muck for later draws. So don't love this format for games with a draw.

I've debated going to a required open in draw games accordingly to deal with this issue - no limping for 1BB. Not sure I'm going to do it though.

 

[Jimulacrum]

The one drawback of this approach is with draw games. it's helpful to get a hand or two out if at a full table to ensure you don't have to go into the muck for later draws. So don't love this format for games with a draw.

For games with a draw, we establish the draw limit based on the number of players, to guarantee there will be no recycling of discards even in the worst case.

I used to bristle at the idea, but honestly, 6-handed Dramaha with 2 max, 5-handed with 3 max, etc., is still a great game that I will play any day of the week.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I love scarney (#1 circus game, IMO), but absolutely hate bomb-pot scarney. Preflop is where the game is played. You pick the hand you see the next 6 cards with. Post-flop the fish that think you should play every hand in scarney are folding to the post-flop bet. It's free money just by picking your spot (and there are a lot of them).

The same can be said for nearly any bomb-pot game. It puts players with no ability to determine strong starting hands on the same level (preflop) as the math genius, and it completely negates a round of betting.

 

[MrCatPants]

For games with a draw, we establish the draw limit based on the number of players, to guarantee there will be no recycling of discards even in the worst case.

I used to bristle at the idea, but honestly, 6-handed Dramaha with 2 max, 5-handed with 3 max, etc., is still a great game that I will play any day of the week.

i generally agree but always worry about late cancels. starting with 6max always makes me nervous.

 

[Jimulacrum]

It puts players with no ability to determine strong starting hands on the same level (preflop) as the math genius, and it completely negates a round of betting.

It does, more or less, but I kinda like this even if it kneecaps a source of advantage for myself.

Makes the game more gambley and gives players more bang for their buck.

 

[allforcharity]

I think most circus games are better played Limit or Pot Limit.

 

[Jimulacrum]

i generally agree but always worry about late cancels. starting with 6max always makes me nervous.

We fluctuate a lot with player count. Some nights we're 5- or 6-handed most of the night. Some nights we have 10 players almost the whole time. We have a whole menu set up to tell us which games we can manage by player count. (Yay for 3-card Scarney variants!)

 

[MrCatPants]

It does, more or less, but I kinda like this even if it kneecaps a source of advantage for myself.

Makes the game more gambley and gives players more bang for their buck.

I think it's actually the opposite, the old reverse implied odds. Flopping bottom trips with a crap card that they may not have originally seen the flop with, and causes those with marginal hands to continue. Getting rid of a round of betting is mixed, because depending on the level of bomb pot (# of BBs) it can actually bloat pots comparitively..

 

[Jimulacrum]

I think most circus games are better played Limit or Pot Limit.

Pot limit would be absolutely unmanageable with this crowd.

Limit, we lean into a little already with the spread-limit games (mainly stud variants and a 4 1/2 to 21 1/2 drawing game we call "Mirage," but no idea what it's called in the real world).

But yeah, in general, I agree that limit is great for circus games, especially long term.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I think it's actually the opposite, the old reverse implied odds. Flopping bottom trips with a crap card that they may not have originally seen the flop with, and causes those with marginal hands to continue. Getting rid of a round of betting is mixed, because depending on the level of bomb pot (# of BBs) it can actually bloat pots comparitively..

I am pleasantly(ish) surprised with how well many less experienced players have adjusted to stuff like this. Very rarely are people going busto on underboats in Scarney or big-hand Double Board Hold'em (e.g., with 4 or 5 hole cards). There was definitely a learning curve, though.

 

[springbox]

Gonna agree with the rest that the stack is way too shallow relative to the ante. With $6~$8 in the pot and a stack size of $19 every hand should be all-in after 1 or 2 bets. I guess the strategy would be to just jam every flop you hit (say top 10~15%ish of hands) and fold everything else.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Gonna agree with the rest that the stack is way too shallow relative to the ante. With $6~$8 in the pot and a stack size of $19 every hand should be all-in after 1 or 2 bets. I guess the strategy would be to just jam every flop you hit (say top 10~15%ish of hands) and fold everything else.

This bright line more or less works for a Hold'em game, but this game is basically every poker game under the sun except Hold'em. Tons of split-pot games.

Still, the overall logic fits with my strategy. I've been playing this game for a couple years now and approach it roughly this way. Start with 20 and prepare to gamble for stacks on my better hands (i.e., lock/near-lock on at least one half of the pot, or big hands/draws both ways) until stacks start to get bigger.

As stacks grow, the decisions become a little closer to normal poker. Somewhere around 100 it becomes comparable to a more traditional structure.

The other part, which I haven't seen addressed as robustly, is starting on the flop with a bloated pot. Having no preflop selection factor whatsoever changes hand reading dramatically; we're playing all post-flop poker, every hand. It's not hard for even amateurs to learn to wait for strong openers in most games, but in this game the judgment is a little different. I feel the experience has made some of the players better overall at poker, whereas they used to rely more on simplistic preflop strategies.