Tourney Angle shot at The Lodge (16 Viewers)

[JustinInMN]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1894038214790230372

Story from PokerNews: https://www.pokernews.com/news/2025/02/poker-angle-shoot-lodge-card-club-48014.htm

And for the record, this is 100% why I hate betting lines as the arbiter of what is a bet. Forward motion toward the pot is more than enough to indicate intent, but if one insists the line should be the rule, it invites exactly this angle.

(For the record, I am not familiar enough with The Lodge's rules to know if they rule by the betting line or if the line is just a design aesthetic to the table.)

I have played in many rooms where that motion is 100% binding, and that would be my ruling in any game that I run.

 

[WedgeRock]

Angle implies he did something wrong. Depending on the house rule about the betting line, and the fact that he didn't release the check, I'm not sure it was an angle.

I watched it on my phone, but it appeared that he looked to his opponent for a reaction. If so, he was definitely looking to get a read, but that is more akin to table talk than an angle.

There was a ruling at the WSOP with a Russian guy that didn't understand the language that forward motion (way into the middle of the table) was not binding, only the release of chips.

 

[upNdown]

I guess it is an angle, but my days of caring about chippy crap like this are over. It seems like chips released is the standard these days. Forward motion isn’t a thing and betting lines aren’t a thing (generally.). Which allows for garbage play like that. Oh well, those are the rules.

 

[horseshoez]

Anyone with a basic understanding of poker etiquette can see that Jose is trying to induce a reaction from his opponent. He knows he's operating in a gray area—while his move doesn’t technically violate the rules, it’s often used to gain information unfairly. Since he didn’t push his chips past the betting line, his action isn’t binding, but from an etiquette standpoint, it’s a clear violation.

 

[WedgeRock]

There was a ruling at the WSOP but a Russian guy that didn't understand the language that forward motion (way into the middle of the table) was not binding, only the release of chips.

It was Brandon Cantu against a Russian guy named Nikolay Losev in the 2008 WSOP ME. I found the PokerNews writeup, but I can't find the video on YouTube. Has it been scrubbed?

Edit:

 

[Legend5555]

I don't know. I can interpret that as him just kind of assuming that he was going to go with it, but then decided he should actually think about it for a second. Not a good look no matter what. But I wouldn't race to call it an angle.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

I don't know. I can interpret that as him just kind of assuming that he was going to go with it, but then decided he should actually think about it for a second. Not a good look no matter what. But I wouldn't race to call it an angle.

Eh, that far into a tournament for that much money and you're deciding halfway through betting if you should or not? I don't hate it, but he's definitely staring and looking for information, I don't believe he had an organic change of heart.

Edit: yeah just rewatched, he stacks, then stares at his opponent while shifting his chips forward. 100% intentional.

 

[jayfiggy]

I don’t think it’s an angle. Looking at your opponent isn’t forbidden.

It seems to me, that as he was pushing his chips into jam, he noticed his opponent getting ready to call out of his peripheral vision.

If he consistently does this, yeah he’s an angler. But it’s very plausible that he gained information from his opponent acting out of turn. Opponent isn’t forced to snap call. He should take a few seconds to make sure action is correct.

I want to see a wide-eye camera view. I think that would make it more obvious.

Although the whole hand is weird… he already committed himself with the 5 million, of course he’s snap calling??

 

[Legend5555]

I don’t think it’s an angle. Looking at your opponent isn’t forbidden.

It seems to me, that as he was pushing his chips into jam, he noticed his opponent getting ready to call out of his peripheral vision.

If he consistently does this, yeah he’s an angler. But it’s very plausible that he gained information from his opponent acting out of turn. Opponent isn’t forced to snap call. He should take a few seconds to make sure action is correct.

I want to see a wide-eye camera view. I think that would make it more obvious.

Although the whole hand is weird… he already committed himself with the 5 million, of course he’s snap calling??

To this end, changing his mind when/if he sees his opponent react too soon, seems like a perfectly legit thing. At that point, i'd argue that I'm just using the info my opponent gave me. But I also wouldn't argue if they tell me I made forward motion and my jam stands.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

It seems to me, that as he was pushing his chips into jam, he noticed his opponent getting ready to call out of his peripheral vision.

Look at his eyes, that ain't peripheral. I don't think its dirty or an angle, but this action is solely to gain information. He stacks the tower and then stares at his opponent.

 

[jayfiggy]

Look at his eyes, that ain't peripheral. I don't think its dirty or an angle, but this action is solely to gain information. He stacks the tower and then stares at his opponent.

That is fair. He definitely was not using peripheral vision. He was focused on his opponent.

It’s interesting because we don’t know if Trung made some movement or twitch that may cause Jose to re-think his decision. That’s why I wanna see a big picture video.

If Jose was just doing that forward motion for information, I feel that is an angle. Although different games play differently. But in a high-stakes, professionally streamed environment… I wouldn’t want shit like this happening.

IMO poker is not about deceiving your opponent about the action that is taking place. But rather the cards you have in your hand.

 

[softchewy]

In my opinion this is an angle. Whether it is cheating or not is a different question.
Very obvious he is feigning an all in bet watching for the opponents reaction to try to determine strength.
He already knew the bet size (Five 1 mil chips spread out easily viewable and dealer announced).
He is playing dumb to minimize the look of the angle by asking the bet size.
I wouldn't call it a bet as he didn't release the chips. Not the worst angle out there, but still an angle.
What the house rules doesn't really change the definition of angle shooting; it defines what is allowed and what is cheating.

if Trung made some movement or twitch that may cause Jose to re-think his decision

Not sure that changes anything as this is the entire point of the angle.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

That is fair. He definitely was not using peripheral vision. He was focused on his opponent.

It’s interesting because we don’t know if Trung made some movement or twitch that may cause Jose to re-think his decision. That’s why I wanna see a big picture video.

If Jose was just doing that forward motion for information, I feel that is an angle. Although different games play differently. But in a high-stakes, professionally streamed environment… I wouldn’t want shit like this happening.

IMO poker is not about deceiving your opponent about the action that is taking place. But rather the cards you have in your hand.

Fair take, you're right about not seeing the opponent.

And I agree, its shady. At a casino its like boxing, protect yourself at all times and this would bother me less, but at my home game I feel responsible for the culture and fun. This is annoying behavior and I'd warn them or make it binding, especially if its versus someone that's new that might just insta-flip their cards over lol.

I have a friend that just tables his cards whenever he's confused which leads to some shitty river situations when he bets. Someone asks "what do you have?" and the mook just shows them. Not an angle, just a newbie.

 

[jayfiggy]

This is annoying behavior and I'd warn them or make it binding

Agreed. Whether the ethics and exact details of this scenario equate to an angle can probably be argued for a while. But I am leaning more towards an angle the more I think and re-watch.

Aside from that. It’s shitty behavior and I wouldn’t want it to happen at my game either. Especially to a newer player.

 

[Machine]

this is 100% why I hate betting lines as the arbiter of what is a bet.

So, 'We hold these truths to be self-evident.'

I would argue that if the betting line is not there to validate a hard line of an action, then the fault or angle is that of the game's host for having a betting line for the sole purpose of causing drama. It is needed to provide a mechanism that draws a hard line in the game.

Minor point: if it weren't there, the game would change and play slower. (like someone referred to chess, touch move)

The announcers are causing the drama here, like Valley Girls in disbelief of a player's fashion! Forward action! Foraward action! yeah, beyond the betting line, which it wasn't.

You may dislike it, but it solves many arguments and is better with it than without.

Further, I don't think you can call this angling, for me to believe that, you would have to show intent.

 

[upNdown]

What the house rules doesn't really change the definition of angle shooting; it defines what is allowed and what is cheating.

I agree with you here. I just take the position that since they’ve effectively eliminated all betting rules except “chips released” they’ve opened us up to exactly this. So yeah, I guess it’s an angle, but it’s hard to care.

Put it this way - if you called the floor to complain, would he have anything to say about it? Doubtful.

 

[TheBigTater]

I for one think the betting line is a good thing. It provides a black & white foolproof line of demarcation that take the interpretation of the forward motion out of play which is such a hard to determine call. Was there intention, are they just stacking or cuttiing out chips. If there is a betting line use it for the purpose it was intended.

Yes he is most likely angling for information but if the rule is the betting line then the other player should protect himself by not snap calling without knowing the action.

It's a big meh for me here......

 

[swana]

In my opinion this is an angle. Whether it is cheating or not is a different question.

Agree with the above, 100%. A move does not have to be cheating to be an angle. I'd argue the most effective angles are the unethical plays that come right to line of cheating without going over in order to gain an advantage.

 

[upNdown]

On their website, the Lodge makes it clear that they use TDA rules for their tournaments. Maybe somebody knows for sure, but I believe that under TDA rules, betting lines on a table are purely decorative.

 

[horseshoez]

It’s hard to label the player as an angler based on this short clip from the OP. Is the move designed to gather information? Absolutely. Is it frowned upon by most of the poker community? No doubt. The key takeaway for anyone analyzing situations like this is to apply the 5-second rule while playing. Regardless of whether action has taken place before you, pause for at least five seconds, think, then act.

 

[Legend5555]

The whole thing is silly though. Jose only started with 8.2m. Between his pre-flop raise, his flop bet, and then the 5m raise by Trung, Jose knows Trung is never folding when he jams. Because of this, I feel I fall more in the not an angle camp. Because there's very little to gain from this angle. Jose would need to think Trung is getting VERY out of line. And that just would not make sense since Jose started with only 15 bigs in Trung only started with 40.

 

[buzzmonkey]

In my game I'm ruling that those chips are all in the pot. If the player protests I'm also warning the entire table that this is not an acceptable action and, regardless of intent, angle shooting is not allowed and can result in penalty.

 

[roughrabbit]

Agree with the above, 100%. A move does not have to be cheating to be an angle. I'd argue the most effective angles are the unethical plays that come right to line of cheating without going over in order to gain an advantage.

I agree with your sentiment, can you think of any valid angles that would be ethical or don't push that boundary of cheating?