Any good source about Stud Hi/Low strategy? (1 Viewer)

[Pinball]

Any good source about Stud Hi/Low strategy?

 

[derekdd23]

The supersystem 2(or maybe 1) still holds as a great place to start.

 

[jbutler]

Would also highly recommend Ray Zee's High Low Split Pot Poker for Advanced Players.

 

[Anthony Martino]

What both of those guys just said. Super System 2 and Ray Zee all the way. Bottom line is you want to be freerolling people in stud hi/lo with a chance to scoop.

Someone who can only win one side of the pot while you have the other side LOCKED and can outdraw them for the 2nd half of the pot and win it all. You know those guys calling raises with a 9 of clubs as their first upcard, that's who you want to play with.

 

[lnlver]

It sounds trivial, but a key point is to avoid playing middle cards/pairs. Also, it helps to know how many outs you have (cards which will improve your hand) and also outs for your opponents' likely hands. Remembering the up cards is important, as it provides lots of information.

 

[manamongkids]

start with suited wheel cards, preferably A2

 

[Anthony Martino]

It sounds trivial, but a key point is to avoid playing middle cards/pairs. Also, it helps to know how many outs you have (cards which will improve your hand) and also outs for your opponents' likely hands. Remembering the up cards is important, as it provides lots of information.

Just to comment on this, it's easier to remember the up cards that have been folded. Track those, the up cards that are still up you can easily see whenever you want. So it's less overwhelming. Players coming from a Hold Em or Omaha background aren't used to having that much information available to them during a hand. Being able to retain that information and effectively use it to not only ascertain your own outs, but the probable holdings and outs of your opponents is very crucial in being one of the better players in the game.

 

[lnlver]

Just to comment on this, it's easier to remember the up cards that have been folded. Track those, the up cards that are still up you can easily see whenever you want.

By 'up cards' I meant all cards that have been dealt face up at any time during the hand. Good players track even the folded up cards. Thanks for clarifying. We're thinking along the same lines.

 

[Anthony Martino]

By 'up cards' I meant all cards that have been dealt face up at any time during the hand. Good players track even the folded up cards. Thanks for clarifying. We're thinking along the same lines.

Yes, I was just trying to convey that it's easier to concern yourself with the folded upcards since that information is no longer visible, but still relevant. While not expending a ton of energy trying to also memorize up cards that haven't been folded, because you can still access that information anytime you please. Just makes it so you don't have to try and retain as much data during the hand is all.

 

[derekdd23]

I always think of this story by Doyle Brunson when someone asks stud8 questions

"Before I met Chip, I’d heard about him. It was the summer of 1973; he and his partner Danny Robison were playing $10/$20 stud over at the Stardust, and they were tearing up the game pretty good. Word had gotten around about him being a strong player, but I didn’t pay much mind to it. Without knowing Chip, I made him out to be a smart kid who came to town and happened to run really well. It happens all the time.

People get lucky until they stop being lucky, and then they lose their bankrolls. Funnily enough, I didn’t even think about being the one to bust him. Chip didn’t have enough money for it to matter.

Then one day Chip and Danny came into the Flamingo where we played hi-lo split. It was me, Puggy Pearson, Johnny Moss, Jimmy Casella, all sitting around the table, playing our regular game. And, I should point out, playing it wrong. Most everybody in that game routinely went for the high, which was a huge mistake; it meant that the best you could do was win half the pot. I understood this, but nearly all of the other guys in the game did not. They were great no-limit hold’em players who adapted slowly to the other games.

Chip immediately recognised what was going on, and before too long sat down with the entire bankroll that he and Danny had built up. It was no more than $30,000, and we played $400/$800, which was considered big back then. He was seriously under-staked for the game – but not for long.

I remember one hand where I was rolled up with Kings, which you ordinarily wouldn’t play. But it was a multi-way pot, so I decided to take a few cards and caught a running pair. I made Kings-full, Chip had a Six-Four low on fifth street, and the other guys were drawing dead. We jammed them in there, and, consequently, it became a pretty big pot. By the river, Chip had four cards to a straight flush. He hit the steel wheel and scooped the biggest $400/$800 pot I’d ever seen: about $30,000. "

 

[Anthony Martino]

I love how a poker bankroll of "no more than 30K" is considered small in the 70's, wtf?! Ok, I get for that limit and all, but still, I'd be pretty stoked with a 30K roll right now separate from everything else

 

[jbutler]

I always think of this story by Doyle Brunson when someone asks stud8 questions

"Before I met Chip, I’d heard about him. It was the summer of 1973; he and his partner Danny Robison were playing $10/$20 stud over at the Stardust, and they were tearing up the game pretty good. Word had gotten around about him being a strong player, but I didn’t pay much mind to it. Without knowing Chip, I made him out to be a smart kid who came to town and happened to run really well. It happens all the time.

People get lucky until they stop being lucky, and then they lose their bankrolls. Funnily enough, I didn’t even think about being the one to bust him. Chip didn’t have enough money for it to matter.

Then one day Chip and Danny came into the Flamingo where we played hi-lo split. It was me, Puggy Pearson, Johnny Moss, Jimmy Casella, all sitting around the table, playing our regular game. And, I should point out, playing it wrong. Most everybody in that game routinely went for the high, which was a huge mistake; it meant that the best you could do was win half the pot. I understood this, but nearly all of the other guys in the game did not. They were great no-limit hold’em players who adapted slowly to the other games.

Chip immediately recognised what was going on, and before too long sat down with the entire bankroll that he and Danny had built up. It was no more than $30,000, and we played $400/$800, which was considered big back then. He was seriously under-staked for the game – but not for long.

I remember one hand where I was rolled up with Kings, which you ordinarily wouldn’t play. But it was a multi-way pot, so I decided to take a few cards and caught a running pair. I made Kings-full, Chip had a Six-Four low on fifth street, and the other guys were drawing dead. We jammed them in there, and, consequently, it became a pretty big pot. By the river, Chip had four cards to a straight flush. He hit the steel wheel and scooped the biggest $400/$800 pot I’d ever seen: about $30,000. "

Love this story. I believe I heard it told by Chip at one point as well.

If anyone is interested in a bunch more from "old days", Tom Sexton (Mike's brother) wrote an absolutely phenomenal column for Poker News prior to his death in 2013. See all his columns, called Sexton's Corner, here. They're nearly all worth the read. I think I'll bookmark this for my own reading later on as well. It's been a while since I read them.

As little taste, Tom's version of the above story:

The first time Chip Reese took a shot at the big game in Las Vegas was a life-changing event for both Danny Robison and himself. Many poker players who dare to enter the big game end up losing everything, never to be seen again. In 1973 the big game was held every day at the Flamingo Hilton, where the Grand Old Man, Johnny Moss, ran the poker room. Regular players besides Moss were Puggy Pearson, Doyle Brunson, and pool hustler and high-stakes gambler Nicky Vachiano. Chip and Danny had built their combined bankroll up to about $80,000 at this point. As Chip now played $10/20 seven-card stud every day at the Flamingo Hilton, he found himself wandering over to get a glimpse of the big game, where thousands of dollars were being won and lost every day. The main game they were playing was stud hi/lo split. The floor man would look at Chip, who looked like a college kid, so young; he looked like he wasn't old enough to even be in the casino. The floor man would tell Chip he couldn't hang close to the big game, as this was for the high rollers only.

In fact, Chip was 23 at the time, and had just graduated from Dartmouth, and had been accepted into the law school at Stanford University. With his blonde, fair hair and youthful looks, he looked to be way out of his element in the smoke-filled room that featured the biggest game in town. One day Chip decided he wanted to jump into the fire, as it appeared these famous old timers were playing the game all wrong and were trying to give their money away. Chip made the most important phone call of his life, when he woke Danny up (who had been playing all night). Chip asked Danny to bring up $15,000 so he could take a shot in the big game.

Danny said, "Chip, we could go broke. They're playing $400/800 limit in that game!"

Chip said, "Danny, you're not going to believe this. You've got to come up here and look at this game. The way these guys are playing, I honestly don't think I could get unlucky enough to lose." Danny agreed to bring over the $15,000, and they both entered the room. Danny sat behind Chip, and both of their hearts were beating fast. The regular players looked like a hungry pack of crocodiles, salivating over their next feast about to happen. They had seen most of these young hometown champions enter the big game and leave busted time after time. Little did they know that they were looking at a young kid that was destined to be king of the high-stakes cash games and become one of the biggest poker legends of all time.

After the first two hours into the game, Chip was up to about $20,000. As the table was playing wild with all kinds of high hands, Chip kept to his strategy of playing mostly low hands. Then something happened in the game that launched Chip and Danny's destiny in Las Vegas. Chip caught a fabulous low hand, with A-2-3-4 of hearts, and a 6 of another suit. Moss and Brunson were fighting over the high hand, with Moss representing a flush, and Brunson three of a kind. Puggy Pearson showed an 8-7 low made on his board, and a four-way raising war ensued, with the pot being capped on every street. Chip knew he had the lock on the low, the way everyone's board read, and couldn't get his money in there fast enough.

When the dealer gave Chip his last card he didn't look right away, as he was going to get half of this gigantic pot for sure. There was one card though, the five of hearts, that would give Chip a straight flush. This miracle card would give him a scooped pot. Chip slowly squeezed his last card, and couldn't believe his eyes… he had it! He caught a straight-flush wheel in seven-card hi/lo split, the best hand any player could ever dream to catch. Chip proudly displayed his winning hand, and reached forward to rake in a $35,000 pot. This hand launched the Golddust Twins into orbit. After playing in this game over the weekend, Chip had incredibly won $390,000! From there, they won at everything they gambled on, be it golf, poker, or gin rummy.

 

[Socraticd]

Just to comment on this, it's easier to remember the up cards that have been folded. Track those, the up cards that are still up you can easily see whenever you want. So it's less overwhelming. Players coming from a Hold Em or Omaha background aren't used to having that much information available to them during a hand. Being able to retain that information and effectively use it to not only ascertain your own outs, but the probable holdings and outs of your opponents is very crucial in being one of the better players in the game.

Yeah, I found that you can pretty quickly further simplify this by 4th street because you have a damn good idea what you're drawing towards at that point, so there are a lot of folded up cards that no longer matter, and you usually have to only track a couple card ranks or one suit by then.

Same sorta applies to Open Face Chinese, if anyone else here plays that