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Argument over custom cloth print (1 Viewer)

OfficerLovejoy

OfficerLovejoy

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Hey guys, need some advice on how to proceed.

I had @timinater design a beautiful custom felt for my homegame which I'm really happy with.
Lots of small details in the pattern that Tim and I spend quite some time writing back and forth to get just right.

I present to you, the "Bullenrunde" custom felt proof:
Bullenrunde Table-PREVIEW_Solid Silver.jpg


I really wanted to print it at Tony (@T_Chan ) but I decided against it because of shipping costs and import fees (another 20% including the shipping costs in the equation).

I found www.4aces-poker.de - a German poker accessories store where you can buy custom gaming suedes as well.

I contacted them showing them the picture above and bought the custom print on their website for €180 (USD: $211).

I sent them the original *.ai file and the dimensions of the table on July 17th.

I didn't hear from them for two weeks so I asked how it's going and if I could expect the suede to be delivered until August 7th when I had my next game scheduled.
They said no, it'll be around August 15th.

It did arrive yesterday and unfortunately it came out very dark and with a red hue that makes the blues appear violet / lilac.
The pattern isn't visible to the naked eye. Ironically it is way more visible when I'm taking a picture.
Wanted outcome:
Bullenrunde Table-PREVIEW_Solid Silver.jpg

What I got (not ironed/mounted) :
IMG_20210811_162305.jpg

IMG_20210811_164511.jpg

IMG_20210811_165319.jpg

IMG_20210811_165349.jpg

IMG_20210811_170213.jpg

IMG_20210811_171804.jpg


I've told them that I'm not satisfied, especially with how dark it came out.
They said they just printed from the file and this is what came out. They don't want to send me a replacement "for free" and don't seem to be to eager to correct the problem with a new print even when I offered to rework the file to the needs of their printer who seems to enjoy dark and reddish prints.
They offered me half the money back if I send them back the cloth and that would be that.

Feels wrong to just shell out $105 and receive nothing in return.

Any advice on how to proceed?

PS: I know, I know just go with @T_Chan next time. Lesson learned for sure.
 
Last edited:
LeLe said:
It felt like Deja Vu for me when buying stuff online overseas, photo always look 10/10 where products come in at 3/10 at best.

:(:( Sometime it Best to go with reliable vendor at abit more premium price
Click to expand...

Agreed. I just expected more from a German vendor. If I'd ordered from China the outcome wouldn't have been so surprising.
 
I always recommend that the designer is in direct contact with the printer. That is how i did it, and my designer was asking them whether they print in RGB (suppose to be stronger colors in digital prints) or in cmyk and other questions. My designer told me after they had their "expert" talk that the print out will be darker than her file. So no surprises there. Always let the experts talk if possible :cool
 
As far as proceeding here, dont know if you have a lot of choices unfortunately, depends how they see/treat customer service.. I guess they delivered a product that is usable...
Btw, i dont think it is that bad, but it probably doesnt help u, sorry for yor your experience there..
 
Sorry about the ordeal, I can feel your pain.

1) Get a prepaid SIM and prank them relentlessly.
2) ?
3) Profit.

Or just let it go and never deal with them again since they’re not willing to work with you. I agree with @Sambukan that while the product isn’t what you wanted and expected, it would still serve its purpose. If you can stomach installing and using it for a few games, maybe it will be good enough. If after a while you still hate it, get a new cloth from somewhere else.
 
Sorry you're not happy with the final product. Maybe it's just me, but the proof looks like a lot of purple, with the bull the only thing that has blue in it. The pictures look like it's slightly more purple than the proof, but proofs can be misleading. Computer screens always seem to look a little different than the physical product.

That said, I think the custom cloth still looks amazing. The lines are crisp and clean. As for the pattern around the edge (I assume that's what you're talking about), that might be the only area where you have a legitimate beef. Can you show a close-up of the pattern in the proof, and a close-up of the final product?
 
Dang. Sorry for this. This is a good cautionary tale though and confirms my choice to use @T_Chan for my future stuff. Thanks for sharing!
 
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It’s hard to convince you as it is your design and you had a idea it your mind of what it should look like, but……..it really is a nice cloth and I’d think your guests will love it. If the material is good, comfortable to your hands, cards slide well, etc., just install it and call your friends and play poker.
I totally get the frustration you feel, but just remember it’s a first world problem and really, life is good.
Oh and yeah, TChan:)
 
Have they got a twitter account? The amount of times I have had to go public with my grievances to get a proper resolution is frustrating, but it does work.

Get a refund, then get Tony to hook you up, you won't regret it, I love mine.

Edit: I really love the design too btw!
 
It’s been a while since I got my custom felt, but seemed to remember from my research back then that blue could be a tricky color. Here is a pretty good explanation why.
 
Have to kind of agree that while the printed version may have shifted a little more toward purple, most of your original blues do appear kind of purple-ish. Especially on the ends of the center area with the gradient.
 
I know it's very tough to accept that result when you worked so hard on the details, but the cloth does look great as is. Your players will love it. If you can like it the way it is, use it. If it is going to bother you, then accept their partial refund offer and pay to have it redone. If you don't use @T_Chan , you could wind up with another similar problem though.
 
it looks fine! Printers never output accurately what you see on screen. There’s a lot of color science behind this, it’s not trivial. Unless you’re on site to iterate proofs before the final is done, I don’t think you can expect better.
 
Man - that sucks. Cloth still looks great but not near as nice as the proof. Sorry you're in this predicament.

You would hope that a knowledgeable/reputable company would have advised you beforehand of the potential color issues with the background pattern. Not just print it out and send it out knowing that the results were likely far from the customer's expectations.

Perhaps you can resell this cloth and recoup more than $105 and put that towards a Chanman cloth?
 
I think it looks fine.
I always feel bad when I see Tony selling off his rejected cloths.
I don’t know if that store has written policies or if there are applicable German consumer laws, but if you asked me for a ruling, I’d say it’s good enough.
 
I think I'd explore partial rebate possibilities with the seller, and see if they will refund their profit from the sale and allow you to keep the cloth that does not meet your expectations.

Everybody wins -- the seller doesn't lose money, you get a discounted cloth and don't lose money, and both sides compromise in an unfortunate situation.

Seems better for both parties than either of the other two options.
 
I have no experience with the process for dye-sub on cloth but I can offer this. I have done a ton of dyesubbed dealer buttons and can tell you that blues and greens, especially darker tones can go awry. I’ve seen some tones that come out almost black. It sucks. But I don’t know that the company is totally at fault to be honest. It would have been nice if they had offered to micro-print a smaller sample but it’s doubtful that is even possible. They should have/could have even possibly known from previous runs that your art might present darker than anticipated. Then again, who are they to question the art? It’s a toughy to be sure. Is there maybe a chance theyde accept a return if you allowed them to sell off this one and provide another? But then, do you want another table felt like yours out there?
 
OfficerLovejoy said:
They offered me half the money back if I send them back the cloth and that would be that.
Click to expand...

lol - WTF, seriously???? That tells me all I need to know about the outfit. Perhaps try to ask for a smaller discount (say a 10% or 15% refund - and you KEEP the cloth), but there's no way you should be sending the cloth back without the offer of a FULL refund, less shipping costs.

To me it honestly looks like they either didn't have a print setting correct or even turned off the design layer with the pattern around the outside racetrack area. As others have noted, it still looks really nice as printed. Chalk it up to a gamble on a less than stellar vendor and be happy you at least got a playable product.
 
The washed out pattern is a bit of a bummer, but I’ll chime in with others that it still looks amazing. I’d lean towards a partial refund and install that sucker.
 
The cloth itself seems nice enough, it's just that I know it's gonna bum me out everytime I'll be looking at the table and think about how great it could have been.

For $210, I expected to be contacted after submitting the file to iron out details about the print and not them just printing it in whatever settings they had on at that moment and sending it out without any further thought or care. Just seems very lazy for that pricepoint and I'm sure they are aware that the printed product looks different from the raw file and could've advised me on how to get the wanted result.

I'll try to negotiate a partial refund to keep and install the cloth until I saved up again for a new one by @T_Chan . Shipping cost and import fees be damned. ;)

Thank you all for your advice.
 
OfficerLovejoy said:
I'll try to negotiate a partial refund to keep and install the cloth until I saved up again for a new one by @T_Chan . Shipping cost and import fees be damned
Click to expand...
I'll echo what others have said I think it looks great.

I would be doing the same thing as you though. Such a great design that deserves to be printed how you want.

Coyote said:
"I 'm not rich enough to economise"
(Greek proverb).
Click to expand...
I've been saying a version of this myself without realizing it. I'm not rich enough to own RHC.
 
Its definitely important to design in CMYK since CMYK is effectively ink based whereas RGB is light based... think "print" vs. "on screen." That being said, when @chipjoker and I were working through our layouts with Tchan, chipjoker had a color sample swatch printed by Tchan. We also paid to have a *mini proof created. Once satisfied, the big layout was printed.

There are so many variables in printing that it is necessary to do these extra steps if you will only accept perfect. If you are willing to accept slight variations, then it is okay to skip steps.

*Edit... the mini proof was only for @Donvito's NY Giants layout.
 
When was the last time you calibrated your monitor? Without calibration you don't know what you're looking at. Not the printers fault.
 
I had a similar issue with @T_Chan - what I designed did not match the print. He printed samples and the suited pattern did not match what was on screen. I had to go back to my designer to increase the contrast.

I'd ask them if you could resubmit the design and have a test print made to verify it prints to your specs.
 

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