BB ante (1 Viewer)

SwissChip

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I see more and more games doing a BB ante.
What‘s the reason for this?

In a late stage tourney, an ante makes more sense to me, but in a cash game?!

Just for the rake? To keep the min-bet/raise at BB? I don‘t get it…

I never liked antes, there are the blinds for this.

It‘s like using 2 set of chips at the same time.
It‘s possible, but why??!

How do you feel about BB ante, or how do you explain this ‚boom‘?
 
In cash games? Not seeing that in my games.

But I assume that it is a stealthy way to increase stakes with fewer people freaking out. (“Let’s keep playing 1/2 but with a 2BB ante, instead of bumping up to 2/5”)
 
I think you only see it in tournaments or high stakes cash games where an ante has historically been in play. I don't think I've heard of it in use in lower stakes cash games.

There's been lots of discussion here and elsewhere about the big blind ante. The stakes and pot sizes don't change if it's a traditional ante or a BBA. The latter is easier for a dealer to manage and should improve the speed of the game when players aren't having to be reminded to "ante up".
 
Not seeing it happen much unless at the nosebleeds and even then, not very common.

Just a way to increase the stakes right?
 
I've been pondering this also. More specifically, why have a BBA in tournaments? Being in the BB is bad enough. If going to use an ante (encourage action?) I prefer the old way of having all players add a tiny ante, rather than big ante for BB.
 
I've been pondering this also. More specifically, why have a BBA in tournaments? Being in the BB is bad enough. If going to use an ante (encourage action?) I prefer the old way of having all players add a tiny ante, rather than big ante for BB.
Widens the range of hands you should play and increases pot size pre flop. Drives action without needing to remind 9 mooks to put out a small denomination.
 
NL Hold Em was traditionally played with an ante before online poker. If you look at the game in theory, the amount of hands you should play overall is very low because the single SB and BB aren't enough to justify getting involved much, especially from early positions.

In practice, people play as if there are invisible antes. And better indicators of whether an ante is necessary in a cash game are things like standard open sizes and how often pots go multiway pre flop.

The reason for an ante is simple though, to drive action. If people don't open their stealinh ranges up to try and pick up that ante, they will lose a ton of EV while the person that does open up rakes in a ton of free money. In general, people don't actual open bigger when an ante is involved. And that because from my experience, people don't adjust their defending and 3 betting ranges against people attacking the ante. If players fold the same among to a person opening to 3x even when an ante is involved, then that person is just going to crush everyone. They are risking 3 to win 2.5 (assuming a standard BBA). They only need to successfully steal 54.5% of the time to show a profit.

I'm modern tournaments is even crazier. People routinely in later stages open to the minimum. Risking 2 to win 2.5. That's just 44.4% success rate needed to turn an in immediate profit. If you've watched any of the high rollers, you know how tight they are playing due to ICM concerns. Imagine the was no ante and they could survive even longer if they only had to put in 1.5bb per orbit instead of 2.5bb. The tight play would be magnified.

Long story short, ante in low stakes (up to 2/5 and maybe 5/10) isn't really necessary because people play looser than they should. Which incentives winning players to attack that loose play. But when everyone is aware of correct ranges with no antes, the have can be very nitty. So an ante helps that. So do Stand up game, straddles, 2-7 bounty, etc.
 
Thanks @Legend5555, i can see more sense now for the BB ante (in high stakes games at least).

We allow straddles in our game. It’s more fun to create action then play higher blinds, or add an ante.
A lack of action was never an issue in our game ; )
 
I've been pondering this also. More specifically, why have a BBA in tournaments? Being in the BB is bad enough. If going to use an ante (encourage action?) I prefer the old way of having all players add a tiny ante, rather than big ante for BB.

It amounts to the same cost per orbit, but takes much less time. Dealer doesn’t have to remind 9 people to get their antes in and collect them from around the whole ring.
 
It amounts to the same cost per orbit, but takes much less time. Dealer doesn’t have to remind 9 people to get their antes in and collect them from around the whole ring.
Yeah, can see that. But to me ends up like having a giant blind and an insignificant small blind. Changes the focus of play. More focus is on BB stealing as small blind too tiny to bother. And if on BBA then focus is on somehow defending. Makes SB unimportant. But yeah, more convenient than traditional ante. Ah, stuff it, personal preference.
 
Yeah, can see that. But to me ends up like having a giant blind and an insignificant small blind. Changes the focus of play. More focus is on BB stealing as small blind too tiny to bother. And if on BBA then focus is on somehow defending. Makes SB unimportant. But yeah, more convenient than traditional ante. Ah, stuff it, personal preference.
In terms of the amount the BB has to post, then it is double, yes. But in terms of the BB representing the amount others must call to stay in the hand, then the BB is separate from the BBA.

And I can't explain it any better than @Legend5555 , more money in the starting pot and higher fixed cost per orbit means more incentive to play.
 
Now i see it as a modern simplyfied version of the ante as we know it, just reduced to one player.

I saw these BB antes only in high stakes games.

A bit paradox for me, because these players should be more focused on the game than we amateurs with our social jazz and frac blinds.

There are many ways to create more action, if needed.
I don’t like the 7-2 game.
If you win 3 hands in a row, you get 2 BB from each player - that‘s a nice one, seen at Aria.
 
Now i see it as a modern simplyfied version of the ante as we know it, just reduced to one player.

I saw these BB antes only in high stakes games.

A bit paradox for me, because these players should be more focused on the game than we amateurs with our social jazz and frac blinds.

There are many ways to create more action, if needed.
I don’t like the 7-2 game.
If you win 3 hands in a row, you get 2 BB from each player - that‘s a nice one, seen at Aria.
I don't think its paradoxical. These games thrive on whales and mooks that have no idea what they're doing, its very boring for casuals to watch if its just a bunch of pros playing tight GTO poker, no one would watch; they need whales to win with crazy insane bluffs so they can share it on YouTube and compliment their play lol. This drives action and creates opportunities for those moments.

And to speak to that further, the BB ante doesn't lessen focus on the game, it just changes the math. If anything it makes them play and focus on more hands, building up bigger and more interesting pots. It increases the pot without doubling the big blind. Going from 5/10/10(BBA) to 10/20 has similar starting pots ($25 vs $30) but should play very differently due to a 3BB raise being $30 vs being $60.

Aria solution isn't bad, have you guys thought about Kill pots? Search on here about them, good fun momentum builder.
 
I don't think its paradoxical. These games thrive on whales and mooks that have no idea what they're doing, its very boring for casuals to watch if its just a bunch of pros playing tight GTO poker, no one would watch; they need whales to win with crazy insane bluffs so they can share it on YouTube and compliment their play lol. This drives action and creates opportunities for those moments.
True! ; )
Thanks - i‘ll learn about kill pots.
 
The Aria version (3 hands in a row) is inverted to a kill pot, if i get it right?!
Not the winner gets ‚punished‘, all other players. This enforce them to win the next hand.

Both versions not bad!
 
Yeah, @Legend5555 said it well. I’ve seen quite a few poker historians and smart guys note that NLHE was always meant to be played with blinds and antes, but that it inexplicably evolved without antes on the cash side.
As far as the big blind ante goes (instead of traditional antes) that’s just something you have to get used to. View it as the same cost per orbit if it makes you feel better. It definitely hurts initially (and every time you have to pay the damn thing) but once you just accept it, it’s hard not to notice how it improves the game.
Always worth acknowledging, there are definitely tournament situations where you can get screwed by the BBA. Oh well, life isn’t fair. The community seems to have agreed that it’s worth it.
 
Yeah, can see that. But to me ends up like having a giant blind and an insignificant small blind. Changes the focus of play. More focus is on BB stealing as small blind too tiny to bother. And if on BBA then focus is on somehow defending. Makes SB unimportant. But yeah, more convenient than traditional ante. Ah, stuff it, personal preference.
This is a flawed way of looking at it. The ante isn't part of the BB even though the BB is posting the entire ante. The ante is dead money. The BB isn't. BBA is a shortcut. While only one person is posting it on any one hand, it represents the sum of a traditional ante from each player.

It's easy to get caught up in the thought that the BB is posting a ton of money, but don't forget that you aren't posting any extra money in any other position. And even with a stack shorter than a single BB, you are entitled to win the entire ante just like with traditional ante.
 
This is a flawed way of looking at it. The ante isn't part of the BB even though the BB is posting the entire ante. The ante is dead money. The BB isn't. BBA is a shortcut. While only one person is posting it on any one hand, it represents the sum of a traditional ante from each player.

It's easy to get caught up in the thought that the BB is posting a ton of money, but don't forget that you aren't posting any extra money in any other position. And even with a stack shorter than a single BB, you are entitled to win the entire ante just like with traditional ante.

This. And just an example to clarify and make things explicit:

The blinds are (say) $1/$3 with a $3 big blind ante.

$3 stays in front of the big blind, while “his” $3 BBA goes into the pot in the middle.

It folds around to the button who opens to $10.

The big blind owes $7 more to call. Not $4 more.
 
This. And just an example to clarify and make things explicit:

The blinds are (say) $1/$3 with a $3 big blind ante.

$3 stays in front of the big blind, while “his” $3 BBA goes into the pot in the middle.

It folds around to the button who opens to $10.

The big blind owes $7 more. Not $5 more.
Perfect - thanks!
As Legend wrote, the BB ante is ‚dead money‘.

Makes a lot sense now. Thanks pros!
 
more money in the starting pot and higher fixed cost per orbit means more incentive to play.
Hmm how long before all the antes and blinds and problems associated with them just becomes a mandatory bomb pot kinda thing. Then there’s always incentive to try a bit harder for the pot. Could lead to fixed rakes in cash games, and make easier for the casino to collect and track?
 

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