Black KK UTG+1 (2 Viewers)

River 'call or fold'?

  • Call

    Votes: 10 43.5%

  • Fold

    Votes: 11 47.8%

  • Flip a coin

    Votes: 2 8.7%
  • Total voters
    23
ChaosRock

ChaosRock

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I played MGM Detroit last night, $1/$2, and was having a solid session up to that point. In for $300, and sitting at $500. Villain is to my right, UTG, and has a few chips less, let's call it $475 on a $600 buy-in... We've been friendly and discussing some hands... He's a young guy who's been the most active on the table. I was probably the second most active and played a bunch of hands against him. Villain didn't seem super aggro but was more of a sticky/crafty player...

A few hands earlier I had won a pot from him when he opened for $10 OTB and i re-poped to $30 with :4h::5h:. He flats. Board gives me an open-ender and he flats again after I bet 2/3pot... Turn is an :8s: and I bet again with the dummy straight. He tanks for a long time and folds I showed the :4h::5h:.

Anyways, to the hand: He opens UTG for $7, a little smaller than usual. I raised to $20 with :kc::ks: and folds around to him who insta calls. Pot is $43 and flop come :9d::4s::3h... Villain checks I bet $25, he calls. Pot is $93 and turn is a :jc:. He leads for $50 and I flat (bad?)... Pot is $193 and river brings an :ac:. He jams AI for a little less than $380.

I turn to the dealer and say I'll need some time as I might call his bet. After only about 15 secs Villain calls the clock on me (?).

Call or fold?
 
Last edited:
slisk250 said:
Shove. I don't think he had AA or an A at all but maybe QQ...but I'm a bit tilted right now. Shove
Click to expand...

And by shove I believe you mean call Mike... Villain is all in... Or maybe you mean shove his turn bet?
 
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DrStrange said:
Did the floor actually honor the clock request after 15 seconds?

I vote call, but don't be shocked to see AJ
Click to expand...

Yep, the floor came over and started giving me partials...

Interested in hearing your reasons for the calling Doc... And do you like the turn flat?
 
A lot of my thinking revolve around the 54s hand. Hero made a move on villain and showed it. He is a young guy, making him {perhaps} more likely to get tilty. That sounded like it happened in the last 10 - 15 minutes. The big over bet seems like he wants Hero to fold. The clock call supports this. It is a dick move.

Though now that I read the OP a little more carefully I have more reservations. Somehow I read "active" as loose-aggressive. But after reading the description better it seems like villain is loose-passive tricky/trappy. So maybe he was being tricky and Hero should be alarmed. Hero has a lot of table talk time with villain. How did his strategy thinking sound?

Thing is the betting pattern doesn't sound like villain is looking for a call. If I had backed into two pair or better, it seems like a strange place to make a big over bet. However, if villain is putting Hero on AK - 3-bet preflop, c-bet the dry flop, float the 1/2 pot turn bet - all seem reasonable for Hero to have AK. And if villain can put Hero on AK holding a hand better than TP/TK, then a jam makes some sense.

In the end, hero or villain have gotten the better of the confrontations. Villain has taken a strange line with his hand and so has Hero. Hero's passive turn leads to the funny bet sizing on the river. Did Hero have a reason / plan for the rest of the hand that lead to the turn call?

I would have been more than pissed at the floor clocking me after 15 seconds. I think I would have had further words with a supervisor just to make sure that the rules were clear.
 
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DrStrange said:
A lot of my thinking revolve around the 54s hand. Hero made a move on villain and showed it. He is a young guy, making him {perhaps} more likely to get tilty. That sounded like it happened in the last 10 - 15 minutes. The big over bet seems like he wants Hero to fold. The clock call supports this. It is a dick move.

Though now that I read the OP a little more carefully I have more reservations. Somehow I read "active" as loose-aggressive. But after reading the description better it seems like villain is loose-passive tricky/trappy. So maybe he was being tricky and Hero should be alarmed. Hero has a lot of table talk time with villain. How did his strategy thinking sound?

Thing is the betting pattern doesn't sound like villain is looking for a call. If I had backed into two pair or better, it seems like a strange place to make a big over bet. However, if villain is putting Hero on AK - 3-bet preflop, c-bet the dry flop, float the 1/2 pot turn bet - all seem reasonable for Hero to have AK. And if villain can put Hero on AK holding a hand better than TP/TK, then a jam makes some sense.

In the end, hero or villain have gotten the better of the confrontations. Villain has taken a strange line with his hand and so has Hero. Hero's passive turn leads to the funny bet sizing on the river. Did Hero have a reason / plan for the rest of the hand that lead to the turn call?

I would have been more than pissed at the floor clocking me after 15 seconds. I think I would have had further words with a supervisor just to make sure that the rules were clear.
Click to expand...

I'll refrain to comment on your thought process until I see if there's more comments Doc, but they are appreciated...

I don't think your initial read of the villain was wrong... It's actually between loose-aggressive and loose-passive, probably more towards loose-aggressive... I mention he's not super-aggro because he wasn't necessarily prone to x-bet clashes pre-flop or a ton of flop re-raises on dry boards... But he's the type of player who doesn't like to give a pot up... Meaning tons of floats/bet and river bluffs...

What is also important, and funny, is that during the first hand played after I joined the table, Villain was on a heads-up battle with another player... Villain jammed the river and the other player went to the tank for a while and apologized for it... Villain said he didn't get why someone would ever call the clock on a cash game... ;)
 
I'm calling. As I said to you via a text a few hours ago. It feels like a dirty two pair. I don't think I'm getting away from it.

ChaosRock said:
Villain checks I bet $25
Click to expand...

solid bet. I probably make it 30. I always tend to be on the heavy side of the betting. Trying to adjust that. 30 still feels like the right bet to me.

ChaosRock said:
He leads for $50 and I flat (bad?)
Click to expand...

I raise him. 143 in the pot with his 50 dollar bet? I'm raising another 100 ish on top.

pssssssssst, 4 days to go by the way :)
 
detroitdad said:
I'm calling. As I said to you via a text a few hours ago. It feels like a dirty two pair. I don't think I'm getting away from it.



solid bet. I probably make it 30. I always tend to be on the heavy side of the betting. Trying to adjust that. 30 still feels like the right bet to me.



I raise him. 143 in the pot with his 50 dollar bet? I'm raising another 100 ish on top.

pssssssssst, 4 days to go by the way :)
Click to expand...

I decided to bet smallish on the flop because i didn't think that board was really good for Villain and it wasn't very likely he would continue with many combos... Really didn't have to price out any draws...

The turn flat was a no brainer for me but discussing the hand with a board member I respect, he said he's always raising that turn... So that made me question my turn flat also... I think Villain could fold everything but JJs there, maybe even AJ... In my eyes, I'm either way ahead or way behind on the run... The problem is that when I flat, I'm inviting tough spots on the river...

3 days brother!!! ;)
 
ChaosRock said:
I decided to bet smallish on the flop because i didn't think that board was really good for Villain and it wasn't very likely he would continue with many combos... Really didn't have to price out any draws...

The turn flat was a no brainer for me but discussing the hand with a board member I respect, he said he's always raising that turn... So that made me question my turn flat also... I think Villain could fold everything but JJs there, maybe even AJ... In my eyes, I'm either way ahead or way behind on the run... The problem is that when I flat, I'm inviting tough spots on the river...

3 days brother!!! ;)
Click to expand...

This probably doesn't make any sense. If I think I'm ahead on the turn I'm definitely raising him. I want more money in the pot.

I
 
detroitdad said:
This probably doesn't make any sense. If I think I'm ahead on the turn I'm definitely raising him. I want more money in the pot.

I
Click to expand...

That statement does make sense to me Bill... What I thought at that moment was he would fold anything he could bluff the river with so he wouldn't put a dollar more on the pot... If he has JJ for top set (and let's not discount smaller sets also), I'm done... AJ is the only hand that could be iffy... I don't think he's calling there $100 bet with AJ (I'm still talking turn)... He's either folding, or a lot less likely imo, shoving... I think I'm rarely gonna get called by worse there...
 
I'm against consensus here, and I voted to fold. It just does not make sense to call $380 when you are only committed with $95. Even though I do believe you are ahead of him, there are many hands that have you beaten here. Risk reward is not in your favour, let's face it
 
I'm torn here. While reading the OP, I'm thinking that a trap is being set up because Villain has AA or a low set. Therefore, my initial thought is to fold. However, that clock comment, in addition to being incredibly dickish, seems like an impulsive comment to induce a fold, in which case you should most certainly call.

Clock comment aside, in evaluating the Villain's effective range, I'm not seeing him much weaker KJ or QQ, with the higher end of his range (set, AA, etc) crushing Hero. Though hero calls are fun, I see this as very risky, so I'm voting to fold.
 
I don't play casino poker, maybe horseshit moves like 15 second clock calling is why. If villain is really crafty he calls clock to make you think he wants you to fold, because he has a set of 9's. Maybe he has been waiting all night to make a move like this. I voted fold, not enough invested and I like to look for reasons to fold.
 
Tough spot man - I played a very similar one with the same hand (KK and an ace river with a donk-2xjam) against a (very, very good) player who by the sounds of it has a very similar style - it was about a year and a half ago and it still sticks with me. I ended up folding and was OK with that at the time, although quite a bit more table time with this player since then has led me to believe that was probably a mistake. On the one hand, you have to be right A LOT of the time if you call and you're going to feel like the biggest fish ever if he turns over A5 or some insanity like that. On the other, you kind of invited this by flatting the turn (which is fine BTW, but you almost HAVE to call river in that case - but of course the A came and the 2x jam... :eek:)

I dunno, I'm going to go with the "flip a coin" option. :D
 
I play this hand two ways.

1) since you're up against an aggro young player, you can flat the turn with the intention of flatting any river bet (albeit the river A is obv the worst card for you)
2) you can just get it in on the turn, or make a big raise (depending on stacks).

As played, I think there are a lot of hands in his range here. Also, if he reads you well, I would be even more inclined to call him down because he might put you on QQ, or KK and try to get you to fold it with something like 88 or TT. He isn't likely to only take this betting line with an Ax.

But ya, like DrStrange said, don't be surprised when he shows you AJ.
 
Difficult spot. I would not be surprised to see villain show up with a hand like q-10s here, but i think he has a set/2p more often. I don't think $1/2 players turn hands with sdv into bluffs too often, so i don't think hands like qq or kj are too likely. The overbet and calling the clock makes it look like a bluff, but I would probably fold unless he looks uncomfortable.
 
I'm going with fold. There just aren't enough 1-2 players out there who are capable of over-bet jamming a bluff on the river. More likely, he slowplayed the flop, value bet the turn and is still value betting the river. I doubt that he has any clue that you have Kings, but I believe that he beats AX.

Oh, and when you 3-bet with 45 and show, dont be surprised when you get into weird spots in later hands. But those spots are where you induce hero calls from the fish, not vice versa.
 
Easy fold for the key reasons above. Rare that players turn their hands into a river bluff and his snap-calling the clock is goading. He wants you to call.
 
Well, as I write this, it's an even split between calling and folding with 2 votes for flipping a coin... (y) :thumbsup: I guess that shows the kind of spot I was in, although I'm sure it's not uncommon...

So thanks for all the comments guys!!! Very, very, very helpful to read all you guys' take on the hand!!! Much appreciated...

As I was tanking, I though about some of the stuff you guys commented on... The first thing that threw me off was his turn lead bet, and now that I though for quite a few hours about the hand, I think it was a great one imo (because of the river shove set up)... I think more often than not, and maybe even WAY more often than not, nutty hands there don't lead... Specially after Villain had seen Hero fire bullets often when in a hand... It felt to me he was betting a J... Reason i didn't raise is that if he has another J for the set, I'm done and will get snap called... If he has any other J, with the exception of J9, he'll fold... Even AJ I think might be a tough call for him...

Anyways, when the A comes on the river and he shoves, I think he's pretty polarized there... Playing $1/$2 I find that river over bets (or shoves) are really not that well balanced and it tends to be more on the bluff side than not... Players are a bit more 'value centric' I find... With the river A I thought Villain would more often than not try to get value from Ax with a smaller bet... It's not an easy call for Hero with anything smaller than AJ... So those things crossed my mind as I was thinking, and I was thinking 'aloud' btw...

I was really leaning towards a fold there BUT his clock calling was bugging me... Not bugging me like it was a dick move but more like it's kinda fishy... He got really agitated when I said I had KK and might call him... That's when he called the clock, first time it happened to me in a casino...

Another hand that came to my mind was a hand a couple of hours earlier when he had trip As and over shoved the river and got called by A7 for AsFull7s...

So I ended up throwing a $1 chip in the pot with a few seconds left and... He tables KJs... Not a brag thread by any means as even then, I thought it was a very marginal call at best... What pushed me over the edge, the clock calling...

Had he called my (eventual) turn bet and shoved the river A, I think my chances of folding would have been much greater... I think...

After the hand he started yelling "how can you make this call?!?!?!?" to which i replied: "My thought process was voiced aloud, pay attention!"... He stormed out of the room... He had been pretty upset for some time with very thin calls from other players through the night... He lost some big pots to hands that weren't supposed to be there... I would have gotten upset he wasn't on my right anymore if not for the fact I was about to leave the casino in 10 mins regardless...

Thanks again for the comments guys... I learned a tremendous amount from this hand thanks to all y'all's comments!!
 
Mr Tree said:
Make sure to immediately call Jeff for the clock
Click to expand...

I'm ready

Screen Shot 2016-05-09 at 1.13.12 PM.png
 

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