Bubble burst (1 Viewer)

[Chris Flynn]

Okay, 3 table tournament played in a league that has 6 event seasons.
Was tied for the points lead for the season going into 3rd event. Cards were hard to come by but made it to the final 11 - 10 at the final table. 6 left at our table.

Pocket Jc 3c

Calls all around on the big blind.

Flop A A 3 - no helpful suits

I see an opportunity to steal blinds and / or take a pot with 2 pair.

I decide to shove with about 10 BBs

Villain just happens to be tied with me for top points this season, has me well covered. And he is a very good player, probably the best in this group.

He cringes, talks and talks - but decides to call.

Turns over KK

I don't connect and he bursts my bubble. BUT, I am happy that he struggled so hard to play those Kings.

I concluded that I misplayed but like to put pressure on players and certainly did here.

How would you have played?

 

[JMC9389]

WTF is the opponent doing flatting kings pre six handed?

It's highly dependent on the situation pertaining to ICM, points league standings, etc. Tough one. I probably shove too with 10 BB's left but part of me thinks that there's a better spot to do it. Lots of Ax hands would limp pre here too without raising if the cast of characters is passive and/or sticky.

 

[MichaelBubly]

Definitely don't hate the play, but I'd probably play more conservatively. Likely a better spot than a pair of threes 6 ways. Especially if people are shallow I'd be worried about a weak ace or middling pocket pair limping late game and calling off a 10BB shove.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Check with the intention of folding every time.

With 5 others players in the pot, there's just too great a chance of running into an ace, or really any other hand that wants to gamble on whether you only have a pair of 3s, and of course that's what you have.

The spot you'll end up having to shove into with your remaining 10 BB probably won't be great, but on average it'll be much better than this.

 

[Frogzilla]

This play has a few bad things going for it:

-you have the lowest Ace frequency (their limp is stronger than your check)

-overbetting a dry board into 5 players

-bluffed with a size you aren’t going to be valuebetting

-ICM hurts the risk/reward math which means the overbets are especially bad

 

[Chris Flynn]

Working through my thought process - post flop I have 2 pair. Since no raise I feel I may be ahead. I like to make it expensive to stay in a hand with me. Understand that any other pocket pair has me beat but haven't seen any aggression to this point. Given my need to stack up for the final table I felt it was a reasonable move. In hindsight I was well behind - but do feel aggression is often rewarded at this stage.

 

[Marc Hedrick]

Working through my thought process - post flop I have 2 pair. Since no raise I feel I may be ahead. I like to make it expensive to stay in a hand with me. Understand that any other pocket pair has me beat but haven't seen any aggression to this point. Given my need to stack up for the final table I felt it was a reasonable move. In hindsight I was well behind - but do feel aggression is often rewarded at this stage.

Preflop aggression is rewarded. It's very likely someone had an ace here six ways. This is a huge punt, IMO.

 

[Marc Hedrick]

You say you may be good....but you are never getting called by worse. So this is a bluff into five people praying no one has an ace or finds a call with 77+

 

[Gunnar]

I don´t like this play at all. 8/10 times you are getting called by something better and often drawing dead as well...

 

[Legend5555]

This is a massive punt.

Calling your hand 2-pair is disingenuous. You're technically correct while in practice being so wrong. Two pair when one is on the board (and the one on the board being the bigger pair) doesn't make your hand a real two pair.

It's hard to tell if everyone limped from what you wrote. But if they did, it's highly likely someone has an A. Also if your hope is that everyone folds, then you are bluffing. There is no worse hand that's calling. On your stack, this is basically always a check fold multiway. It's better to leverage your stack worth all in jams where we can generate folds or get to see all 5 with 33-80% equity.

And in terms of league points, it's a disaster to go out before the only guy that can overtake you.

 

[Eriks]

And he is a very good player, probably the best in this group.

No he is not.

Just check and probably fold. With 5 more players limping (you’re in the big blind, right?) it’s very likely someone has an ace.

 

[Frogzilla]

Math on that overbet 0 equity bluff is, to profit chips, you need folds 59% of the time. Because of ICM you need folds 75-80% of the time.

Odds you run into an Ace if they had random cards are 39%. Their limp range will have above average Ace freq, so really you’ll run into an Ace 45-50% of the time.

 

[Senzrock]

Unfortunately I have to agree with several above and say that this ended up being a very bad play. It only looks slightly better in retrospect as the player with KK played his hand terrible as well (should never be limping here short handed in the tournament setting).

Keep asking yourself this question: Can my hand get better to fold and worse to call? Clearly you are never getting worse to call, so this is a pure "hope and pray" move, basically hoping no one has an A or anything good enough to call. If you wanted to bluff here, I actually prefer a check-raise which would look super strong to a hand like KK but either way it's just a simple check-fold. We never want to fall into hope & pray mode. We always want a strong rationale for any action.

The good news is that if the person limping KK is the "best in the group" then with a few adjustments, you should be able to take over that title!

 

[Chris Flynn]

Thanks everyone for the thoughts - always appreciate objective feedback to help improve the game. I've learned quite a bit by sharing hands like these on PCF.

My line of thinking was that if someone is willing to shove on that flop while on the bubble then it would be a tough call without a pocket ace - so I was trying to get away with not being called - and cleared out the other players so was head to head at that point.

Like some of you - I did conclude it was a bad move but still didn't bother me too much - it's a friendly game and going outside of the lines on playing a hand like this makes it fun.

 

[MrCatPants]

The one thing that cracks me up about these late-middle tournament hands where someone limps a premium is, because results, they further believe that stealth-limping and seeing a multi-way flop is a legit strategy.

 

[Nerxa]

Okay, 3 table tournament played in a league that has 6 event seasons.
Was tied for the points lead for the season going into 3rd event. Cards were hard to come by but made it to the final 11 - 10 at the final table. 6 left at our table.

Pocket Jc 3c

Calls all around on the big blind.

Flop A A 3 - no helpful suits

I see an opportunity to steal blinds and / or take a pot with 2 pair.

I decide to shove with about 10 BBs

Villain just happens to be tied with me for top points this season, has me well covered. And he is a very good player, probably the best in this group.

He cringes, talks and talks - but decides to call.

Turns over KK

I don't connect and he bursts my bubble. BUT, I am happy that he struggled so hard to play those Kings.

I concluded that I misplayed but like to put pressure on players and certainly did here.

How would you have played?

The action is too vague to give you an honest answer.

The way I read it he was early position and limped KK and you open shoved the flop? If so, this is a bad spot to shove with your specific hand. And he nitrolled you.

 

[Nerxa]

The one thing that cracks me up about these late-middle tournament hands where someone limps a premium is, because results, they further believe that stealth-limping and seeing a multi-way flop is a legit strategy.

I see a lot of premium limps from utg when there is short stacks in the blinds, valid strategy to force them to commit for the dead money

 

[JustinInMN]

Okay, 3 table tournament played in a league that has 6 event seasons.
Was tied for the points lead for the season going into 3rd event. Cards were hard to come by but made it to the final 11 - 10 at the final table. 6 left at our table.

Pocket Jc 3c

Calls all around on the big blind.

Flop A A 3 - no helpful suits

I see an opportunity to steal blinds and / or take a pot with 2 pair.

I decide to shove with about 10 BBs

Villain just happens to be tied with me for top points this season, has me well covered. And he is a very good player, probably the best in this group.

He cringes, talks and talks - but decides to call.

Turns over KK

I don't connect and he bursts my bubble. BUT, I am happy that he struggled so hard to play those Kings.

I concluded that I misplayed but like to put pressure on players and certainly did here.

How would you have played?

He limped KK?

I wouldn't expect that.
That said, I think a 6-way pot is "protected", meaning someone is likely to have at least bluff-catching strength to call. You are surely going to be called by Ax if it's out, and it will be more often than not with 5 hands out there. So I would concur this was a misplay. If you were somehow the button with J3s (I don't recommend it), I don't mind the shove at once after everyone has checked. But being first/second to act, this is too risky.

I'm still a little surprised villain is ever there with KK, but I think as the KK villain, if I slow play it pre, I kinda have to call it off here since KK crushes everything aside from Ax or 33.

Late edit:

In a sense you were "lucky" that no one has Ax this time. Usually someone will. But by the same token, you were "unlucky" that someone slowplayed a hand as good of KK so the range of hands that could call was slightly bigger than the assumed Ax.

You will fold out most Kx, Qx, and 22-88 sort of limping hands for sure, but in a six way pot, the odds of someone having a calling hand is pretty high, and higher than we would have thought given one villain is willing to slowplay a monster like KK.

 

[Frogzilla]

GTOWizard does recommend mixing in open limps at that stack depth with pockets and suited aces, can’t be that bad

Limps are green, min raises coral, jams are maroon in their graphic

All this preflop stuff on there is free (?!)

 

[Nerxa]

GTOWizard does recommend mixing in open limps at that stack depth with pockets and suited aces, can’t be that bad

Limps are green, min raises coral, jams are maroon in their graphic

All this preflop stuff on there is free (?!)
View attachment 1105295

Depending on position and people's stack sizes you can adjust the range a little more. Putting dead money is a great way to force people to shove. Also, when you mix in medium to strong hands, you can readjust easily if someone iso a shover.