Tourney Buy-in amount affects? (1 Viewer)

[legonick]

Is there really any difference between $10, $15, and $20 buy-ins? This is for a ~3.5 hour 9-person freeze-out.

I think anything north of $20 might feel "fleecy" since some of these players are VERY amateur. I'd say it's a mix of 1-2 are very amateur, 4-5 have some experience as in they know the game and have played, and 1-2 have more experience and some studying on the game. Basically no one is heavily experienced, especially in live play.

Thoughts? What do you run for a tournament buy-in on your more social games? What affects do buy-in amounts have on the game from like $5 to $40 in $5 increments?

 

[raynmanas]

It depends on the amount of disposable income your crowd generally has, but the difference between $10 and $20 is negligible for most people to pay for 3 hours of entertainment. I'd personally always err higher for the prospect of the bigger prize.

 

[redeagle]

I concur that it depends a lot on the group's economic level and disposable income. Also with how they view the game (casual fun for a change of pace once in a while versus the regular weekly/monthly game). I play with some family once in a while and its a $10 buy-in for bragging rights. I know a regular monthly game with $300 buy-in that has been meeting for over 10 years and the players view it as a casual, low-stakes game. For a game of entertainment between friends, I think a $20-$50 buy in is fine. Nobody should leave feeling pain for the amount of loss in a casual game between family, friends, co-workers and/or neighbors.

A member here at PCF has some great tutorial videos. Take a look at this link below and some of his other videos.

Starting Stacks, Buy-in, Etc Guide

 

[legonick]

I'm hoping for it to be a monthly game, or at least (re)start that way.

Economically, it's mostly white-collar middle to upper income folks. No one is "rich" but several are comfortable - they don't have to budget things like going out to dinner, etc. Some have significant student debt, some have higher family costs (3 kids, new baby on the way, etc.), most have mortgages, I don't think any own their homes outright.

Wow a $300 monthly game...at that level I'd think you'd start to be thinking about really needing to take some home occasionally. I mean, how many Netflix subscriptions is that? How many car insurances? How many grocery bills? Etc.

$20 a month probably won't put you under, but $300 a month, people gotta start asking questions/thinking hard about showing up.

 

[Poker Zombie]

We hold a $20 tournament, max of 1 rebuy. Once a year we hold a $30 tournament, no rebuys.

This allows a married couple to attend for a $40-$80 night of fun. Winning is just gravy.

Sure, I occasionally play elsewhere for higher stakes, but more money never changes the level of fun. The important part is that it's enough to notice. I balance my pay table so 1st almost always gets $100 or more, because winning a hundred bucks is pretty cool, right?

For a 9 player freezeout, I'd stick to $20 buy-in, and $100 first, $50 second, and $30 third. Paying 1/3 the field also keeps more people happy than just paying winner-take-all or even just top 2, as nearly half the field will have won something, or been close enough to taste it.

 

[redeagle]

Wow a $300 monthly game...at that level I'd think you'd start to be thinking about really needing to take some home occasionally. I mean, how many Netflix subscriptions is that? How many car insurances? How many grocery bills? Etc.

$20 a month probably won't put you under, but $300 a month, people gotta start asking questions/thinking hard about showing up.

It really depends on the crowd. I know people who go to Vegas for a weekend and feel a $500 gain/loss was a significant. My friend's dad does an annual trip with a $20K stake for a week of play, while his wife hangs out at the pool and spa. He also gets some comp benefits so you could say that offsets a loss a bit but not really. Like anything, everyone has their comfort range. There is no right/wrong, just a fact that there is a large income range for many different people.

If it's a group of friends and some are on the learning curve of poker, I recommend a lower buy-in to leave room for rebuys if somebody busts out early in the night. And maybe limit the rebuy to just one or only within the first hour. Starting at $20 sounds good.

EDIT: I agree with @Poker Zombie that the buy-in doesn't affect the level of fun for 90% of people.

 

[JustinInMN]

Pretty subjective question depending on the economic circumstances of your players.

Now in my neck of the woods, it's tough to get players to come out for anything under $40, so based on your original comment, obviously it's different is different places.

The best way to deal with this is trial in error.

 

[Quicksilver-75]

$20-$50 weekly tournaments. Sure, we have a few guys who push to play for bigger stakes. They’re also the better players who stand a better chance. It’s a balancing act. The buyin is the biggest factor in our game. The more reasonable, the bigger the turnout for tournaments. I’ve found tournaments are the best way to get players. The more comfortable the newer players become, the more inclined they are to try some of the higher stakes cash games. Start at $10, and offer side games like bounty’s or high hands. They can generate quite a bit of fun for a $2 or $5 entry. That way, you can offer two jackpots. One big payout or a few places for the main tournament and a smaller jackpot for the High Hand. And keep it at $15.

 

[Frogzilla]

I love low stakes poker just because I love the game.

That said, there’s an additional element when the loss stings

 

[Quicksilver-75]

there’s an additional element when the loss stings

^This.
probably the key to starting things rolling is making the game feel more like a social gathering than true gambling. People should look back at a losing night and be able to say, “meh, it was a fun night out.”
On a side note: If you are playing monthly, bare in mind there’ll be a month’s worth of socializing...
Keep cell phones off the table and encourage conversation to continue outside of hands.

 

[redeagle]

I love low stakes poker just because I love the game.

That said, there’s an additional element when the loss stings

I agree. I've played card and strategy games since forever. I'm almost as happy if I am invited to a spades, dominos or bridge night. I don't personally care about the stakes, but realize it matters to some. I don't care how low, but do have a ceiling I won't pass and I have the discipline to only play stakes in my comfort zone. Others feel it is not worth it unless it's something they feel significant so you will have guys that keep pushing to raise the buy-in until some others stop showing up because they don't want to play those stakes. It is just something you have to manage considering who is playing, how often, disposable income levels, etc..

I've had this discussion several times and here is another way to evaluate a good starting level.
First, forget the gamblers and self-identified sharks looking to score on the fish. This is a social game. No hard feelings and you all want to be friends again next time you play.

Most people evaluate the game as a night of entertainment with the difference that it might be a "free night" if you win (and we all hope to win). The max loss (not just buy in) should be the equivalent of other options for that Friday night out or weekend of fun. This varies a lot for different groups.

Some examples:
College kids: A movie, pizza and beer $20-$30.
Young, Working & Single: Night out to bars/clubs $50-$100+.
Middle class working guys: A golf game or a box of ammo : About $100+.
Corp Exec: Fancy dinner and wine, or tickets to the NBA game $200-$300+
Brain surgeon or pro-Athlete with $1M+ annual: $1K and up or its just play money.
Married/Kids in College: Wife allows you $20 if you're lucky and can sneak out.

 

[Colquhoun]

^This.
probably the key to starting things rolling is making the game feel more like a social gathering than true gambling. People should look back at a losing night and be able to say, “meh, it was a fun night out.”
On a side note: If you are playing monthly, bare in mind there’ll be a month’s worth of socializing...
Keep cell phones off the table and encourage conversation to continue outside of hands.

Agreed. You need to strike the buy-in at the amount that feels “fun” to all without feeling at all uncomfortable.
If some people think the amount is too much, while others feel it’s too little...the problem isn’t with the amount, it’s with the group of folks together at the table.

 

[BPTDirector]

I found that my players, mostly in the 30 to 50 year old range with professional IT jobs and a couple kids liked $30 monthly buy in but began to balk at $50.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I found that my players, mostly in the 30 to 50 year old range with professional IT jobs and a couple kids liked $30 monthly buy in but began to balk at $50.

I too felt a little pushback when we did $50 for our 100th event.

I need @redeagle to be my next boss, so I can be a working class guy that can afford $100 weekends!

 

[redeagle]

@Poker Zombie Don't get your hopes up. I'm in the last category right now.
I have a 5 year stretch ahead of me with 2 kids in college and I'm pricing out my spare kidney as we speak.

I also think it matters what your local options are. We have many local casino/race track card rooms here in south florida and people get used to the weekend $50 or $100 entry poker tournament. Of course it's different winning the 100 seat tournament, but regular players get used to that entry fee. However, most casual social players want to play a home game with friends, not go to the casino to play with strangers. That is for the gang who really like to play frequently.

I don't golf anymore, but even a public course is $100+ a round these days. If you hit the Doral or a good course here during winter its $250-$300 a round and there are golf nuts who play every weekend.

 

[legonick]

We hold a $20 tournament, max of 1 rebuy. Once a year we hold a $30 tournament, no rebuys.

This allows a married couple to attend for a $40-$80 night of fun. Winning is just gravy.

Sure, I occasionally play elsewhere for higher stakes, but more money never changes the level of fun. The important part tis that it's enough to notice. I balance my pay table so 1st almost always gets $100 or moree, because winning a hundred bucks is pretty cool, right?

For a 9 player freezeout, I'd stick to $20 buy-in, and $100 first, $50 second, and $30 third. Paying 1/3 the field also keeps more people happy than just paying winner-take-all or even just top 2, as nearly half the field will have won something, or been close enough to taste it.

How often do you hold the $20 tournaments?

Good point - more money doesn't change the level of fun, at least for me and I don't think it would for the group either. And as a social game, I think there is a small potential to lose players (really only 1, maybe 2) north of $20, or more if you are way north of $20, but basically no chance of losing players <$20. But that needs balance. A $1 game just seems so...cheesey? I don't know. I 100% agree, I want to pay 3 people out. 1/3 the field getting paid is nice! Winner take all would be a big deterrent especially if you had a very good player at the table.

On a side note: If you are playing monthly, bare in mind there’ll be a month’s worth of socializing...
Keep cell phones off the table and encourage conversation to continue outside of hands.

Good point, I'll ask that cell phones stay off the table to keep things moving and also to encourage interactions with the group there, not your GF/wife/buddy on SMS. Not sure I'm going to make in a punishable rule just yet though...let's see how it plays out. The last time I hosted, we had a low hand count, but a lot of that was due to a very new player, 1 deck of cards instead of 2, and a difficult to deal on playing surface. Those 3 issues have been resolved or improved.

[...]
Some examples:
College kids: A movie, pizza and beer $20-$30.
Young, Working & Single: Night out to bars/clubs $50-$100+.
Middle class working guys: A golf game or a box of ammo : About $100+.
Corp Exec: Fancy dinner and wine, or tickets to the NBA game $200-$300+
Brain surgeon or pro-Athlete with $1M+ annual: $1K and up or its just play money.
Married/Kids in College: Wife allows you $20 if you're lucky and can sneak out.

Yeah this is leaning me towards that $20 buy-in, or maybe even $15 due to other costs...some like to bring beer, most would probably go in on a pizza, etc.
The group as of now is:
5 white-collar workers with between 1 & 3 kids.
1 white-collar guy, married with no kids.
2 white-collar younger guys with significant others, planning for the future.
1 whiteish blue-collar guy with no kids.

I'm leaning towards a $20 buy-in. That gets you that $100 or dang near 1st prize, while still paying out 3 spots. I'm concerned about basically 1 of the white-collar younger guys as he has a significant student debt load and tends to be pretty focused on costs...frugal. Also, he may be the worst player, and I think is the least experienced at poker by far, so he may need to be considering it just a "donation".

 

[Poker Zombie]

Nice thing about a $20 buy-in, is nearly everyone brings $20s. If you buy in with 2x $10s, you will probably have your entire prize pool ready to go.

$15 buy-in means you need to have a stack of $5s on hand for making change for everyone that buys in with a $20. Of course, if you are in the "Venmo everything" age bracket, this is less of an issue.

I usually host every 6 weeks. I'm a career firefighter, so I only get a free weekend every 3 weeks. At some point during the year I will host one game with a 3 week gap, because there are those divorced people that have a child every other week, so this shifts the game onto their schedule.

Unless your players are true degens, there is wisdom in the "keep them wanting more" concept.

 

[Quicksilver-75]

That’s why I think having a few little bonus games going on the side like a high hand or even a bounty can make the game more fun for people who feel less skilled. They still have a chance at winning something regardless of skill level. Personally, I like to only pay two spaces when we have less than 7 players at a table. $20 is our minimum and also most popular. A $2 high hand is always optional and our bounty’s range from $2-3 per player. We have gone higher but members seem to like just forking over $25 and being in everything.
We play VERY regularly. I won’t say much more than that due to the current climate with Covid and the popularity of individuals offering their “opinions”.

 

[legonick]

That’s why I think having a few little bonus games going on the side like a high hand or even a bounty can make the game more fun for people who feel less skilled. They still have a chance at winning something regardless of skill level. Personally, I like to only pay two spaces when we have less than 7 players at a table. $20 is our minimum and also most popular. A $2 high hand is always optional and our bounty’s range from $2-3 per player. We have gone higher but members seem to like just forking over $25 and being in everything.
We play VERY regularly. I won’t say much more than that due to the current climate with Covid and the popularity of individuals offering their “opinions”.

How do these work - so high hand is the best live hand across the entire night gets the entire pot?

Bounties that are optional...how does that work? If someone gets knocked out by someone who opted out of the bounties, does the player get his own bounty back?

 

[BPTDirector]

I have one friend that hosts a single table $20 buy in once a week. Heck I have another buddy and we play heads up for a dollar. Hardest fought dollar ever I’m telling ya.

 

[Poker Zombie]

That’s why I think having a few little bonus games going on the side like a high hand or even a bounty can make the game more fun for people who feel less skilled. They still have a chance at winning something regardless of skill level. Personally, I like to only pay two spaces when we have less than 7 players at a table. $20 is our minimum and also most popular. A $2 high hand is always optional and our bounty’s range from $2-3 per player. We have gone higher but members seem to like just forking over $25 and being in everything.
We play VERY regularly. I won’t say much more than that due to the current climate with Covid and the popularity of individuals offering their “opinions”.

We also do bonuses, for the same reason - spread the wealth.

While my night's bonus varies (last month was whoever won the most hands with two hearts in their pocket cards), the preferred bonus is a bad beat - the best losing hand of the night wins $10.

The bonus is usually only 1/2 a buy-in, so it shouldn't influence game play, and bonuses like the bad beat are more likely to go to a player that is finishing out of the money, where a high hand bonus tends to go to a player finishing in the money.

 

[legonick]

We also do bonuses, for the same reason - spread the wealth.

While my night's bonus varies (last month was whoever won the most hands with two hearts in their pocket cards), the preferred bonus is a bad beat - the best losing hand of the night wins $10.

The bonus is usually only 1/2 a buy-in, so it shouldn't influence game play, and bonuses like the bad beat are more likely to go to a player that is finishing out of the money, where a high hand bonus tends to go to a player finishing in the money.

Yeah, more hands == more chance for high hand bonus.

I like that bad beat thought too...fun, and you really don't want to get it, so it shouldn't impact play. What are the logistics...how do you track it? You just write down when you get one above, say, trips or something? And keep updating it as you go along?

 

[JScott]

Like everyone says, it’s all relative. Chris (forgot his username) had a good video on stakes and said “It should feel pretty good when you win, and not too bad when you lose”

funny thing is it’s not just income related, but mindset related. All of my friends are pretty well off, I could never see us spreading a good $1/2 game like many of you do. Meanwhile everyone’s got new cars, expensive homes and brings over drinks worth 3X their buyins. But they like 25/50¢ poker and that’s alright with me.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Yeah, more hands == more chance for high hand bonus.

I like that bad beat thought too...fun, and you really don't want to get it, so it shouldn't impact play. What are the logistics...how do you track it? You just write down when you get one above, say, trips or something? And keep updating it as you go along?

Yep. It's a little paperwork, but not crazy (I update it on a big monitor). I list is as 7-5-4-3-2, so whoever wants to claim it first gets their name up first, but for MTTs it has always gone to trip 10s or better.

However, on Ladies night (10 or fewer players) it has gone to 2 pair twice.

 

[JScott]

However, on Ladies night (10 or fewer players) it has gone to 2 pair twice.

What? explain this to me. You've had nights where high hand bonus went to 2 pair? TWICE?

 

[JustinInMN]

However, on Ladies night (10 or fewer players) it has gone to 2 pair twice.

Playing five card stud?

 

[legonick]

What? explain this to me. You've had nights where high hand bonus went to 2 pair? TWICE?

Agreed that seems soooo rare. Maybe they know when to fold 'em?

My n00b night had a multiple full house hand before the half-way mark! LOL.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Playing five card stud?

What? explain this to me. You've had nights where high hand bonus went to 2 pair? TWICE?

Those were bad beat bonuses. The best losing hand of the night was 2 pair. The games were both NLHE.

Generally speaking, it's usually a high Flush that takes the bad beat, but it's not unusual to claim it with a full house losing to a bigger full house.

The high hand almost always goes to quads, but it was once claimed with a boat; 6-6-6-K-K

 

[JScott]

Those were bad beat bonuses. The best losing hand of the night was 2 pair. The games were both NLHE.

Generally speaking, it's usually a high Flush that takes the bad beat, but it's not unusual to claim it with a full house losing to a bigger full house.

The high hand almost always goes to quads, but it was once claimed with a boat; 6-6-6-K-K

Wow, even so that seems really low. Then again my friend's all seem to really over value their trips/flushes on paired boards.

 

[CrazyEddie]

You should have an additional bonus for lowest best losing hand.