Greg Warneke could be an alias for Ted Beneke. Its possible. Pretty sure that though beaten he was left alive.
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CLOSED - Group Buy for Warneke 100 count 'Paulson-Type' Chip Storage Boxes (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter justsomedude
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Jambine
Full House
I think for this type of basic mass production it is absurd. This a very old company and should have a tight grip on overage and waste.
It's not like a manufacturer of super sophisticated electronics, looking for a Beta Test partner
OP
OP
justsomedude
Straight Flush
gopherblue
Straight Flush
I have a proposition: I decided I don't want my order. If the order comes in 100+ light, just zero out my allocation.
Let's gambool!
Let's gambool!
Jambine
Full House
I think I misread his message. I thought he was saying you pay for the entire order even if it's short.
I haven't read all the posts, but if they wont budge on the +/- 10% then i'm more than ok with buying 90 or 110 boxes. based on my 100 boxes order.
At $0.49 / box if it ends up being 110 i think it will be ok.
Also as a negotiation tact, you could agree to the +/- 10% but only at the 15000 box pricing. (with you still ordering 12500)
EDIT: So if they wont budge and we all agree that much variance is a lot, but spread out over multiple orders of 50, 100, 200 its really not that big a deal.
At $0.49 / box if it ends up being 110 i think it will be ok.
Also as a negotiation tact, you could agree to the +/- 10% but only at the 15000 box pricing. (with you still ordering 12500)
EDIT: So if they wont budge and we all agree that much variance is a lot, but spread out over multiple orders of 50, 100, 200 its really not that big a deal.
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I would tell them that you are losing orders now and that you might need a couple of days to see if you can still go forward with the order. Give it a day or two and see what they say. It's a free roll move. 
I'm ordering 200 (50 of which are spoken for, and I'm hoping to unload 50 more for net 100). I'm okay with getting 140 (190-50) but 170 (220-50) is more than I need. Being forced to purchase more product than desired because the manufacturer can't or won't accurately determine their process scrap rate just seems absurd.
One of the reasons I'm ordering 200 is for case price re-shipping. Accepting anything over 200 will totally fuck up the reshipping -- that's a lot of the unspoken burden in all of this.
One of the reasons I'm ordering 200 is for case price re-shipping. Accepting anything over 200 will totally fuck up the reshipping -- that's a lot of the unspoken burden in all of this.
I agree that it's probably not the end of the world for any of us to be +/- on our ordered quantities, and I also realize that's probably a difference between wholesale (manufacturing) and retail, especially since this is a custom item.
However (at the risk of beating a dead horse) a manufacturer should never deliver a lower quantity than what was ordered. If you order 1000 units at price X, they simply must deliver at least 1000 units. If that means they end up with 1100, so be it -- but it should be an OPTION to purchase the extras at the same unit price. "Hey, we ended up making too many -- do you want another 10% at the same price?" (or even a discounted price) -- that's reasonable. "Hey, you ordered 1000, we made 1100, so you owe us more money" is not reasonable.
And this BS line about "you ordered 1000 but we could only make 900, sorry" is just absurd.
Even if the normal expectation is that we'd be making repeat orders for the same items for the foreseeable future, it's STILL on the manufacturer to produce at least the amount that was requested, and store any extras if they think we might want some more later.
However (at the risk of beating a dead horse) a manufacturer should never deliver a lower quantity than what was ordered. If you order 1000 units at price X, they simply must deliver at least 1000 units. If that means they end up with 1100, so be it -- but it should be an OPTION to purchase the extras at the same unit price. "Hey, we ended up making too many -- do you want another 10% at the same price?" (or even a discounted price) -- that's reasonable. "Hey, you ordered 1000, we made 1100, so you owe us more money" is not reasonable.
And this BS line about "you ordered 1000 but we could only make 900, sorry" is just absurd.
Even if the normal expectation is that we'd be making repeat orders for the same items for the foreseeable future, it's STILL on the manufacturer to produce at least the amount that was requested, and store any extras if they think we might want some more later.
This was my thought as well. Anything under 200 will still have a large effect, really. JSD will have to open a carton, take out 17 boxes, and fill up the space. What a PITA.
Exactly. It would be nice if we could accommodate the variance within the sub-200 orders. I'm willing to go +/-25% on my 60.
Of course I like the idea of guaranteeing everyone's orders and having a vendor take on any extras. OTOH, it's not an insignificant amount. If I'm mathing correctly, to guarantee the 12050, we'd need to order 13389 and could end up with 12050 to 14728. Plus ordering more because of a suddenly announced policy that should have been clarified upfront...kinda feels like a shot to the gut.
An interesting play, for sure.
Of course I like the idea of guaranteeing everyone's orders and having a vendor take on any extras. OTOH, it's not an insignificant amount. If I'm mathing correctly, to guarantee the 12050, we'd need to order 13389 and could end up with 12050 to 14728. Plus ordering more because of a suddenly announced policy that should have been clarified upfront...kinda feels like a shot to the gut.
An interesting play, for sure.
Mental Nomad
Full House
You're on the right track... but this isn't between wholesale and retail. Wholesale is between manufacturing and retail.
For mass-manufactured goods like this, a manufacturer produces for a wholesaler/distributor, the wholesaler/distributor gets it to retailers, retailers sell it to customers.
Customers buy exact quantities.
Retailers buy exact quantities... but often contract for return rights on unsold goods.
Wholesalers buy production runs... which come with production variances. The pick a target, they get an amount plus or minus, and then they sell until sold out.
Stuff that doesn't sell initially - or gets returned - goes to discounts stores and bargain shops.
This group buy is going straight to a mass manufacturer. That's part of why the cost is so low. I'm sure he'd sell you the EXACT number of boxes you want at $1 a box, which is still cheaper than retail would cost on these.
You can order with a "minimum quantity" spec... but that just means they'll run the stock in at something like +25%, most likely coming in at around +15%, and you end up getting more boxes.
Some manufacturing processes are a lot more variable than others; things like temperature and moisture can affect rapid paperboard processing, can affect how paper dust builds up, the machines can have more or less slippage causing alignment issues, all sorts of things.
If they did their work an a slow, careful way and in a climate-controlled environment with finely tuned machines... they'd be charging closer to $1 a box.
Mental Nomad
Full House
Consider how much CPC prices vary per mold and per spot level... that's partly because of varying labor, but also a lot is due to varying rates of wastage caused by different combinations. CPC knows these because of many runs on the different variations.
This box is a first-time run for Warneke of a new die / fold / glue run.
This box is a first-time run for Warneke of a new die / fold / glue run.
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crussader
Flush
Like others I'm am flexible on my order plus or minus as long as we pay for what's delivered, and don't pay for what's not delivered.
For me the bigger concern is the width of the inserts. If the inserts aren't right and chips can slip out of their rows during shipment, then the boxes aren't worth two cents to me.
For me the bigger concern is the width of the inserts. If the inserts aren't right and chips can slip out of their rows during shipment, then the boxes aren't worth two cents to me.
Mental Nomad's points offer some excellent insight on highly scaled manufacturing processes.
That said, I do believe there was an onus of responsibility on Warneke to more fully understand the nature and expectations of his potential customer when quoting here. It should have been reasonably clear based on the "guy-off-the-street" nature of the inquiry, that this customer was much more likely to expect or naively assume exact quantity delivery. The quote should have either taken this into account at higher per-box price, or made clear in its terms the risk-assumption policy on variant production runs.
And I too certainly hope a revised prototype with wider inserts can be given a good shakedown, and that chipslip becomes a non-issue. How does the board stock thickness compare to the Paulson box (as a gauge of how much the side might bow when uncovered)?
That said, I do believe there was an onus of responsibility on Warneke to more fully understand the nature and expectations of his potential customer when quoting here. It should have been reasonably clear based on the "guy-off-the-street" nature of the inquiry, that this customer was much more likely to expect or naively assume exact quantity delivery. The quote should have either taken this into account at higher per-box price, or made clear in its terms the risk-assumption policy on variant production runs.
And I too certainly hope a revised prototype with wider inserts can be given a good shakedown, and that chipslip becomes a non-issue. How does the board stock thickness compare to the Paulson box (as a gauge of how much the side might bow when uncovered)?
I think you may have hit some good points. These are the sorts of things I was hinting at when I said that it's an industry we don't really know anything about. There may be variables that we're just unaware of. On one hand, I'd like to be able to get exact numbers, but on the other I suppose there could be things that aren't under the control of the manufacturer. It wouldn't put us in the best light if we start telling experts in their field how to do their job. Maybe JSD can get some clarification when he talks to them on Thursday.
Chicken Rob
Full House
So we're at $112 per carton of 200, and people are worried about a 20% swing, but no one is concerned about the fact that these will be $30-$50 to ship? $50 is 67% more than 30.
@justsomedude should just offer these at $134.40/carton and ship exact numbers. He can keep any overages as thanks from the community, and if he collects more money than the order costs, he should keep it as thanks from the community.
This is still a great price/box.
@justsomedude simply orders the 10% overage to ensure we get enough, prices them to cover the max cost, and gets less than minimum wage for his efforts.
I'd still be in under this model.
@justsomedude should just offer these at $134.40/carton and ship exact numbers. He can keep any overages as thanks from the community, and if he collects more money than the order costs, he should keep it as thanks from the community.
This is still a great price/box.
@justsomedude simply orders the 10% overage to ensure we get enough, prices them to cover the max cost, and gets less than minimum wage for his efforts.
I'd still be in under this model.
slisk250
Straight Flush
I just caught up on this. I can help make this much more easy for two reasons. I can use a buttload of new, unmarked boxes that can replace those I use to ship chips I sell this july. I also will have no additional shipping fee and will pick up all my boxes.
I'm willing to get more than thew 400 boxes I ordered. Just fill in the number you need to get to Andrew. I'm sure I can find someone who needs extra boxes if they hit the 10%+.
@justsomedude
I'm willing to get more than thew 400 boxes I ordered. Just fill in the number you need to get to Andrew. I'm sure I can find someone who needs extra boxes if they hit the 10%+.
@justsomedude
OP
OP
justsomedude
Straight Flush
You got it, Mike -- Thank you! (y) :thumbsup
y) :thumbsup:Hot damn, do I love this forum!!
slisk250
Straight Flush
A bazillion box labels in wait
links_slayer
4 of a Kind
nice dot spot
I haven't paid, and guessing the June 1st deadline for payment has changed ?
OP
OP
justsomedude
Straight Flush
Mental Nomad
Full House
The good news is that we're getting an additional discount to $0.479 per box.
The bad news is that we need to commit to an order of 12,500, which is almost 500 boxes above where we are now.
Small point of order...
12, 000 * .513 = $6,156
12,500 * .479 = $5,987
You don't actually "need" to collect for more boxes.
Collect for 12,000 at .513.
Order 12,500.
Expect refund.
Magic.
OP
OP
justsomedude
Straight Flush
I REALLY don't want to deal with refunds. But I don't think I have an option, the way these guys operate.
bentax1978
4 of a Kind
I REALLY don't want to deal with refunds. But I don't think I have an option, the way these guys operate.
Then keep any excess for yourself and your effort. (y) :thumbsup:
OP
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justsomedude
Straight Flush
I appreciate all this you guys. It really helps keep me motivated, especially after yesterday's ridiculous news.
Maybe I'll just offer up any overages that are paid for to a PCF site giveaway or something.
I REALLY don't want to deal with refunds. But I don't think I have an option, the way these guys operate.
For that little (~$175 overage for collecting $$ for 12,000), you should just keep it for driving this boat.
slisk250
Straight Flush
Just make sure that the original order can be handled if it comes in at -10%. I will take the hit and buy up a good portion of the extras if it comes in +10%. I don't really want 1000 extra boxes but I'm gambling that won't happen.
I bet they could fit n a rolling carry on for all those people coming to the Divide. If you are not shipping your boxes, I can pick them up when I get to Denver around July 22 or so. That is all assuming these can be produced in that time frame. Perhaps there is something we could do with the overage cash if it is significant (after Andrew gets taken care of.)? Either something for the chipping community or members of the GB....donate to a local homeless shelter?
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