Doing a verifiable seat draw in advance (1 Viewer)

[Dbxela]

There isn't really any good reason to do this, drawing cards on the day works perfectly.

But I had a feeling a seat draw a day or 2 in advance might generate some banter, and then I learned a (very small) bit about cryptography. So this is just for those interested.

The goal is for the host to draw the seats in advance without other players present, and for those other players to be able to verify that it was a fair random draw:

1. Establish the player list, fix the naming conventions, and sort alphabetically.
2. Find a website like this random.org, that implements a validated opensource randomisation algorithm.
3. Agree a seed in advance that cannot be known at the point you agree it. On that website you can simply use their daily value on the planned draw day, but I think it's a bit more glamorous to announce in advance you will use the main headline on a new website, or the score in a recent sports event.
4. On the draw day, paste the player list and the seed in the website, get the sorted seat draw list, and share with the group.
5. They can repeat the exact same steps independently if they want to check it.

It actually didn't generate much banter, so hasn't been used much but I though sharing it may drag the last bit of value out of discovering that.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Okay, I can see the value if people don't believe I'm picking fairly, but why do I as the host have to prove stochasticity in something basic like seat draw? Do your players think you're cheating? I just see 1, 2, and 4 being the only steps I need. If they ask for proof that its random, move them to my direct right.

I like the idea of announcing ahead of time but I can't see any of my apes getting excited at me proving how random my randomness is.

 

[upNdown]

Okay, I can see the value if people don't believe I'm picking fairly, but why do I as the host have to prove stochasticity in something basic like seat draw? Do your players think you're cheating? I just see 1, 2, and 4 being the only steps I need. If they ask for proof that its random, move them to my direct right.

I like the idea of announcing ahead of time but I can't see any of my apes getting excited at me proving how random my randomness is.

I like the idea of being able to prove ultimate fairness. I just can’t believe we in here talking about a seat draw. We’re talking about a seat draw?

 

[Dbxela]

20 years ago a was in a game in which the host drew seats and tables in advance, and didn't cut the deck of the first hand of the first table, which played out VERY suspiciously.

Now I like draws to be verifiable and cuts to always be done one handed. But the thing above is mostly just because its interesting, there are some other real world use cases for a process like that (not that I can remember them now).

If it has any poker benefit, I guess its just to cue the group that they should sometimes think about whether their gambling is run properly.

 

[Taghkanic]

Can this site allow you to non-randomize one of the seats?

In my game, I always sit in the same seat—with my back to the projector screen, so that everyone else has some view of it—and with easy access to my chips/box.

Players draw for seats excluding mine, which effectively makes my seat also random in relation to theirs, though not as far as actual position at the table.

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(Come to think of it, I guess I could just make the seat to my left Seat 1, and then draw for n-1 players.)

 

[Dbxela]

And it wouldn't even have to be a proper intent to cheat. A sloppy host might hit randomize a few times without really realizing they were looking for a list they liked, or they thought 'looked random', or met some other criteria.

 

[Dbxela]

Can this site allow you to non-randomize one of the seats?

In my game, I always sit in the same seat—with my back to the projector screen, so that everyone else has some view of it—and with easy access to my chips/box.

Players draw for seats excluding mine, which effectively makes my seat also random in relation to theirs, though not as far as actual position at the table.

I'd just do the full draw and put myself in the dealer position and rotate everyone around it, or you could leave yourself out the draw and make seat 1 to your left (which is basically what you do anyway).

 

[FestiveKnight]

Can this site allow you to non-randomize one of the seats?

In my game, I always sit in the same seat—with my back to the projector screen, so that everyone else has some view of it—and with easy access to my chips/box.

Players draw for seats excluding mine, which effectively makes my seat also random in relation to theirs, though not as far as actual position at the table.

.
.
.

(Come to think of it, I guess I could just make the seat to my left Seat 1, and then draw for n-1 players.)

This is what I do. I use cards numbered 2-N and seat 2 is to my left.

 

[pltrgyst]

Random.org has gotten a bit carried away with mathematical and scientific purity recently. Except for scientific applications, I'd rather use the list randomizer at https://www.gigacalculator.com/randomizers/randomizer.php .

I've been using it for the past two years to randomize court assignments for several weekly doubles tennis leagues, with zero problems.

 

[timinater]

I used this one for our recent season finale game. We had two tables so I appreciated being able to randomly separate everyone into two groups. It was clear from my table position the draw wasn't rigged.

https://www.randomlists.com/team-generator

 

[JustinInMN]

There isn't really any good reason to do this, drawing cards on the day works perfectly.

But I had a feeling a seat draw a day or 2 in advance might generate some banter, and then I learned a (very small) bit about cryptography. So this is just for those interested.

The goal is for the host to draw the seats in advance without other players present, and for those other players to be able to verify that it was a fair random draw:

1. Establish the player list, fix the naming conventions, and sort alphabetically.
2. Find a website like this random.org, that implements a validated opensource randomisation algorithm.
3. Agree a seed in advance that cannot be known at the point you agree it. On that website you can simply use their daily value on the planned draw day, but I think it's a bit more glamorous to announce in advance you will use the main headline on a new website, or the score in a recent sports event.
4. On the draw day, paste the player list and the seed in the website, get the sorted seat draw list, and share with the group.
5. They can repeat the exact same steps independently if they want to check it.

It actually didn't generate much banter, so hasn't been used much but I though sharing it may drag the last bit of value out of discovering that.

I appreciate the thought. Random.org has a lot of applications I enjoy.

At the same time, I don't see the value in drawing seats early unless you know your field is complete.

To me, nothing is more provably fair than just drawing seat tokens after the buy-in.

 

[raynmanas]

nevermind. i have reading comprehension issues.

 

[louBdub]

I give you tube of chips.

You open tube.

Inside cap, you see number.

You match number to one in cup holder.

You sit.

 

[BGinGA]

I give you tube of chips.

You open tube.

Inside cap, you see number.

You match number to one in cup holder.

You sit.

They don't get to randomly select their chip tube? Sounds suspect....

 

[BGinGA]

I don't see the value in drawing seats early unless you know your field is complete.

nothing is more provably fair than just drawing seat tokens after the buy-in.

I just have players randomly pick a seating chip (often a dual-purpose bounty/seating chip) when they pay for their buy-in.

Only time I pre-draw seats is for our Championship tourney (where the field has already been established), and name cards with their respective starting stacks are placed prior to player arrivals.

 

[glynn]

At the same time, I don't see the value in drawing seats early unless you know your field is complete.

This is the only issue I foresee, but OP can just treat unknowns the same way he would if he used any other method to draw for seats.

Sure, this might look gimmicky, but at worst it's as much effort as drawing seat cards or chips. In addition to the added security (or perception thereof), another benefit is that the seat draw is known ahead of time, so you can skip a ceremony and get closer to playing cards. All of this bullshit is bypassed:

"Oh, we are drawing for seats?"
"How do I find out what seat I'm in?"
"It looks like I'm Seat 7, where is Seat 7. One, two, three..." *
"Now do I give this back to you?"
"Host, why aren't you drawing for a seat?"

* Okay, maybe not this one.

Random.org has gotten a bit carried away with mathematical and scientific purity recently.

random.org has gotten too damn random!