Ettiquette question in home game - checking out of turn on river (1 Viewer)

[MrCatPants]

So I know the poker rules here - thinking more about appropriate action in a friendly game.

PLO cash, heads up to the river. Decent sized pot of about 150 BB. Hero is last to act, and river completes his nut straight flush.

Player who folded turn audibly groans when the diamond hits (wtf?), so hero figures he's not getting paid unless a bluff comes and mistakenly checks out of turn. Action is reset back to small blind who thinks for a few minutes and grabs for chips.

Hero feels immediately horrible and blurts "I swear my out of turn check was not an angle", before the bet is made. Small blind declined to make the bet and Hero just tables the straight flush for the pot.

This caused a few interesting discussions post game.

Question - was this the right way to approach it for a competitive but friendly home game? Should Hero have let the bet come out without verbalizing and just called? Or since action was reopened should they just have raised and "that's poker"?

 

[Santa123]

Question - was this the right way to approach it for a competitive but friendly home game?

Yes

 

[DrStrange]

Seems like the right thing to do. checking out of turn with the nut is easily seen as an angle-shoot. What else could it be - mistake or angle?

Good for Hero to clear up the situation before it becomes a situation.

 

[ArielVer18]

Nothing. It's heads up in a cash game, so let them figure it out. Should Hero tried to win more money? He could have, but it's pretty clear he doesn't want any more.

 

[upNdown]

I think it was handled well. Personally I might have even taken it a step further and tabled my hand before he got any chips out, just to make it clear that I’m not trying to be a sleaze. Because yeah, if hero checked out of turn inducing a raise, that’s an angle and it’s pretty sleazy. FWIW, I don’t have a problem with the “that’s poker” attitude though if that’s how guys want to play - no holds barred, sleazy angles encouraged is one way to play. But I don’t know many people who want to play that way.


An issue that’s interesting to me, (but not really relevant) is checking the nuts on the river. Though it’s typically only a tournament rule that you can’t close the action on the river by checking the nuts, I think there’s a real good argument for making it a rule in cash games as well. Otherwise what are you saying - we’re okay with soft play?
But further, if you did make it a rule in a cash game, how would you enforce it? What’s the penalty?
And even further, if you were in a tournament and you did check the nuts out of turn on the river, is that a penalty? Hmm.

 

[Machine]

This reads as a non question, because its very accepted.

@upNdown beat me to it, soft-play.

I have a few follow up questions, 1) Where you the host 2) would you do this with everyone at the table 3) do you have written rules barring soft-play?

Edit: You can circumvent 'soft playing' by stating you were ensuring your 'MDF' but someone that knows better would likely call BS

 

[TheOffalo]

I'm a little confused. So there's "2.5" players involved: Hero, Villain, and "Groaner"? Since it's heads up, the only way hero can check out of turn is if hero has position. Why would hero check a straight flush on the river (even if it might not be the nuts--not sure if a higher straight flush could be made)?

Is it because it's a friendly game? I know people who have done that, and I'm not 100% against it (unlike in a tournament setting), but what I'd prefer to do in a similar situation is shove all-in and then say something like "I guarantee you want to fold."

 

[Jimulacrum]

So I know the poker rules here - thinking more about appropriate action in a friendly game.

PLO cash, heads up to the river. Decent sized pot of about 150 BB. Hero is last to act, and river completes his nut straight flush.

Player who folded turn audibly groans when the diamond hits (wtf?), so hero figures he's not getting paid unless a bluff comes and mistakenly checks out of turn. Action is reset back to small blind who thinks for a few minutes and grabs for chips.

Hero feels immediately horrible and blurts "I swear my out of turn check was not an angle", before the bet is made. Small blind declined to make the bet and Hero just tables the straight flush for the pot.

This caused a few interesting discussions post game.

Question - was this the right way to approach it for a competitive but friendly home game? Should Hero have let the bet come out without verbalizing and just called? Or since action was reopened should they just have raised and "that's poker"?

I think you took it a little too far.

Letting the person know your out-of-turn check was an honest mistake is fine. "Sorry, thought it was my action." That's enough.

Vociferously pointing out that it wasn't an angle basically sounds the alarm that you're strong (which is the only context in which you'd be thinking about it as a possible angle), with the predictable result being exactly what happened. Villain checks and you're forced to check back. Your honest mistake and your instinct to be forthright shouldn't rob you of what could have been substantial action.

Then again, I don't really believe in the myth of a "friendly" poker game. It makes me cringe when people intentionally sacrifice massive value on the end to take it easy on a friend or not seem too cutthroat. "I got you, but I don't want to take all your chips," as he checks back the nut flush against the second nut. It's like intentionally scratching on the last shot in pool to spare someone's feelings.

This case is a little different than that, but same essential issue.

It's a competitive game of skill played for money. They may be your friends outside the game, but they are your opponents within it.

Play with honor, but always play to win.

 

[MrCatPants]

This reads as a non question, because its very accepted.

@upNdown beat me to it, soft-play.

I have a few follow up questions, 1) Where you the host 2) would you do this with everyone at the table 3) do you have written rules barring soft-play?

Edit: You can circumvent 'soft playing' by stating you were ensuring your 'MDF' but someone that knows better would likely call BS

Yes, yes, no

To be clear, in position I would have bet. But out of position after that groan from another player, no way I was betting in what I thought was out of position.

 

[Machine]

Yes, yes, no

To be clear, in position I would have bet. But out of position after that groan from another player, no way I was betting in what I thought was out of position.

yeah I can't imagine anyone scoffing at the play.

 

[Budha]

An issue that’s interesting to me, (but not really relevant) is checking the nuts on the river. Though it’s typically only a tournament rule that you can’t close the action on the river by checking the nuts, I think there’s a real good argument for making it a rule in cash games as well. Otherwise what are you saying - we’re okay with soft play?
But further, if you did make it a rule in a cash game, how would you enforce it? What’s the penalty?
And even further, if you were in a tournament and you did check the nuts out of turn on the river, is that a penalty? Hmm.

I have a a bit of a hard time reconciling this one. I have used checks to induce bluffs from agro players as a strategy. Using table image, if I’m playing kinda tight, a bet sends a signal. Depending on how I’m playing, (Tight Agro, etc) the check on the river can be a valid play.

Of course it’s a risk, not betting means they could check too. But in certain circumstances, and how the hand was played, checking the river w/the nuts can induce a big bluff bet against an agro/bluffer.

 

[upNdown]

I have a a bit of a hard time reconciling this one. I have used checks to induce bluffs from agro players as a strategy. Using table image, if I’m playing kinda tight, a bet sends a signal. Depending on how I’m playing, (Tight Agro, etc) the check on the river can be a valid play.

Of course it’s a risk, not betting means they could check too. But in certain circumstances, and how the hand was played, checking the river w/the nuts can induce a big bluff bet against an agro/bluffer.

are you just talking about a check-raise? Because I’m all cool with that.
But intentionally acting out of turn to check, to induce a raise? I think that’s crossing a line in the sleaziness direction. But the more I think about it, maybe it’s worse than an angle? Because an angle is doing something that doesn’t break the rules - ACTING OUT OF TURN ACTUALLY IS AGAINST THE RULES. Hmm . . .

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

are you just talking about a check-raise? Because I’m all cool with that.
But intentionally acting out of turn to check, to induce a raise? I think that’s crossing a line in the sleaziness direction. But the more I think about it, maybe it’s worse than an angle? Because an angle is doing something that doesn’t break the rules - ACTING OUT OF TURN ACTUALLY IS AGAINST THE RULES. Hmm . . .

I think the angle part is when you're acting like it was a mistake and you didnt do it on purpose. But you're right, both breaks the rules.

Ive done this before, accidently done something that could be misconstrued as sleezy or angly then soft played to make up for it. Not at a casino with random mouthbreathers but at private invited games, sure, Id rather have my reputation than one last bet.

Im not telling them what I have or showing my hand, just being contrite about breaking the rule in a social environment and making it clear I've got the winner. If they still want to bet into me or not believe me, sure, its on them!

 

[Goosefraba]

I think it was handled in a decent manner more so bc SB didn’t pay off the Hero in the end. Had SB pushed any amount of chips in and lost I think it would have left SB feeling tricked or cheated. But as was mentioned there’s no “friendly” game of poker.

I would ask how is the table talk during throughout the game? Trash talking? Jokes? Friendly chitchat? If it’s straight serious all night and this happens I think the end result has mixed feelings.

 

[MrCatPants]

I think it was handled in a decent manner more so bc SB didn’t pay off the Hero in the end. Had SB pushed any amount of chips in and lost I think it would have left SB feeling tricked or cheated. But as was mentioned there’s no “friendly” game of poker.

I would ask how is the table talk during throughout the game? Trash talking? Jokes? Friendly chitchat? If it’s straight serious all night and this happens I think the end result has mixed feelings.

Pretty active joking environment even for an action game. E.g. I sometimes wear a medal that when you press it plays the song "you're the best around" from the karate kid movies and click it whenever I drag a pot.

 

[Goosefraba]

Pretty active joking environment even for an action game. E.g. I sometimes wear a medal that when you press it plays the song "you're the best around" from the karate kid movies and click it whenever I drag a pot.

You should have pressed it when the Hero was dragging in the pot.

 

[MrCatPants]

You should have pressed it when the Hero was dragging in the pot.

I did.

 

[Goosefraba]

I did.

It’s him.. He’s the Hero in this situation.

 

[MrCatPants]

It’s him.. He’s the Hero in this situation.

Every situation.

 

[Frogzilla]

I think it was handled well. Personally I might have even taken it a step further and tabled my hand before he got any chips out, just to make it clear that I’m not trying to be a sleaze. Because yeah, if hero checked out of turn inducing a raise, that’s an angle and it’s pretty sleazy. FWIW, I don’t have a problem with the “that’s poker” attitude though if that’s how guys want to play - no holds barred, sleazy angles encouraged is one way to play. But I don’t know many people who want to play that way.


An issue that’s interesting to me, (but not really relevant) is checking the nuts on the river. Though it’s typically only a tournament rule that you can’t close the action on the river by checking the nuts, I think there’s a real good argument for making it a rule in cash games as well. Otherwise what are you saying - we’re okay with soft play?
But further, if you did make it a rule in a cash game, how would you enforce it? What’s the penalty?
And even further, if you were in a tournament and you did check the nuts out of turn on the river, is that a penalty? Hmm.

Ive seen this one live and it was a warning for the out of turn action (and binding check behind once IP checks). I think it was completely overlooked that he technically checked back the nuts.

Also…maybe I’m unclear, how is checking out of turn an angle? I mean it’s against the rules but even if it weren’t it’s binding, a novice villain with limited knowledge of the exact rules shouldn’t be surprised. out of turn betting is an angle, sure, but I don’t see how anyone gains much by binding themselves to check behind

 

[Highli99]

I act out of turn all the time because I am impatient, non observant, and can’t deal with people that hide their cards while taking forever to make simple decisions. It’s exhausting. I don’t do it intentionally, ever.

But yeah I probably bet something there. Probably an insultingly small bet but still something. As long as the out of turn check was truly an accident.

Way hero played it was fine too.

 

[Machine]

Ive seen this one live and it was a warning for the out of turn action (and binding check behind once IP checks). I think it was completely overlooked that he technically checked back the nuts.

Also…maybe I’m unclear, how is checking out of turn an angle? I mean it’s against the rules but even if it weren’t it’s binding, a novice villain with limited knowledge of the exact rules shouldn’t be surprised. out of turn betting is an angle, sure, but I don’t see how anyone gains much by binding themselves to check behind

Because his check is only binding after it’s checked to him, if the action changes in front of him he can change his action.

If the player bets he can then raise and in this situation regardless of his action it’s sketchy and looks like an angle either way.

Which is why his action in the OP is perfect play

I thought when he posted he was wondering if there was something else that might have been more appropriate or was asking about what he didn’t comment on such as soft playing

 

[upNdown]

Also…maybe I’m unclear, how is checking out of turn an angle?

That’s a fair question. I’ve had a lot of thoughts about this issue. On one hand, it seems like a pretty clear angle, not unlike the famous one I’ve linked below - you’re doing something you never intended to do, to trick your opponent into raising.
On the other hand, how is it any different than table talk? How is checking out of turn to feign weakness any different than a sad sigh or any number of fake tells?

It’s a question worth exploring. My gut says that this checking out of turn gambit crosses a line. But I’ll say it again, by acting out of turn, you’re actually breaking a rule. Angles are trickery that don’t involve rule-breaking. So in that regard it’s different than talk and it’s also different than angle shooting.

 

[raynmanas]

to trick your opponent into raising.

you've said this a couple times not, but you do mean "betting" right? i'm just not sure if i am misreading your hypothetical situation.

 

[upNdown]

you've said this a couple times not, but you do mean "betting" right? i'm just not sure if i am misreading your hypothetical situation.

Yeah, I often say raise when I mean bet.

 

[Coyote]

@Jimulacrum has set it right, pointing out that poker is a violent competitive game, and, if played among friends and kin, friends and kin should agree to take the violence, mutually.

Just like boxing among friends. There should be rules and measures to avoid serious injury.

Let me now shift the topic to another level:
Amidst a very friendly game, with a truckload of joking, laughing and teasing (no Church silence), a losing player says, heads-up, to his opponent, "OK, I' m loosing, gimme the final blow so that I can get back to the wife".
That player is then called, only to show the cold nutz.

Q1: Should joking and coffee-housing be allowed even among friends?
Q2: What a professional dealer and floor manager would have done in a casino?

 

[TheOffalo]

@Jimulacrum has set it right, pointing out that poker is a violent competitive game, and, if played among friends and kin, friends and kin should agree to take the violence, mutually.

Just like boxing among friends. There should be rules and measures to avoid serious injury.

Let me now shift the topic to another level:
Amidst a very friendly game, with a truckload of joking, laughing and teasing (no Church silence), a losing player says, heads-up, to his opponent, "OK, I' m loosing, gimme the final blow so that I can get back to the wife".
That player is then called, only to show the cold nutz.

Q1: Should joking and coffee-housing be allowed even among friends?
Q2: What a professional dealer and floor manager would have done in a casino?

I feel like that is speech play. The other player could have folded (or not raised).

It’s the ol’ “I need to go home so I’m shoving (with the nuts)” trick.

 

[Coyote]

I feel like that is speech play. The other player could have folded (or not raised).

It’s the ol’ “I need to go home so I’m shoving (with the nuts)” trick.

The two questions are:
a. is it legitimate among strangers in a card room / casino?
b. is it ethical among friends? should the perpetrator be told by the victim to fuck off and never play again with "them"?

 

[TheOffalo]

The two questions are:
a. is it legitimate among strangers in a card room / casino?
b. is it ethical among friends? should the perpetrator be told by the victim to fuck off and never play again with "them"?

I think it’s legitimate (or at least not breaking the rules) with strangers in a casino.

I think there are some (unspoken) rules amongst friends. Like most people would consider a hit-and-run to be rude in a home game and may cause someone not to be invited back. But I wouldn’t make an “ethical”‘value judgement though.

 

[Jimulacrum]

@Jimulacrum has set it right, pointing out that poker is a violent competitive game, and, if played among friends and kin, friends and kin should agree to take the violence, mutually.

Just like boxing among friends. There should be rules and measures to avoid serious injury.

Yup.

Let me now shift the topic to another level:
Amidst a very friendly game, with a truckload of joking, laughing and teasing (no Church silence), a losing player says, heads-up, to his opponent, "OK, I' m loosing, gimme the final blow so that I can get back to the wife".
That player is then called, only to show the cold nutz.

Q1: Should joking and coffee-housing be allowed even among friends?
Q2: What a professional dealer and floor manager would have done in a casino?

The common version of this is someone pretending to be tired / bored / ready to go home as he shoves, which I've seen again and again. In fact it's one of the more reliable weak-means-strong tells. What you've described is a lot more targeted and verbally explicit, but more or less the same thing.

Q1: Yes. Off the bat, it would be impractical to set rules around this. Deception is part of the game, and good luck trying to run a home game where people aren't allowed to talk.

That said, it's your own fault if you break someone's trust in a way that affects you outside the immediate hand or game session, or even outside poker. Pulling nasty speechplay tricks isn't cheating, but it certainly isn't necessary and won't endear you among the people you do it to. It's like tying people's shoelaces together while they're playing. It won't disqualify you from claiming any pots, but don't expect anyone to be happy about it.

Q2: Probably nothing unless it looks to present a problem with keeping order at the game, same as any other conduct. Shouldn't affect the outcome of the hand.