Facing a Game that Plays Larger than I'm Comfortable With (1 Viewer)

[codeman00]

I have a local raked game that I've played in for 1.5 years now. $1/$2 NLHE, $10 max straddle, , no max buy in, normally everyone buys in for $200-$500, sometimes more. I have kept meticulous track of all of sessions since 2015. I'm a winning player and have moved up from $0.25/$0.50 to $1/$2 or $1/$3. I have no issue with playing casinos, home games, raked games, etc. This game that I frequent is very convenient location, safe, I'm familiar with the players, etc.

However, the game changed to a $1/$2/$5 bring-in. While its many of the same players, others have showed up and now some buy/re-buy in for $1000-$2000. In other words, it's almost bypassed the $2/$5 and sometimes plays like $5/$5 or $5/$10. There are better players now. I can look at my records along with analyzing my own play and can easily recognize that this sudden shift has affected my confidence, proper actions during a hand, and win rate. And being in state where we don't have casinos, it's not like I can just find another game or table. Its either this one, or nothing. I know the first question is am I bankrolled for this game? The answer is yes but it's just uncomfortable for the reasons stated above.

So has anyone gone through a similar experience? How did you adjust? What do you suggest? I can study and work on my game all I want...this isn't a study thing.

 

[Kain8]

Paging @Anthony Martino to teach the ways of short buy-ins and crushing!!

 

[Schmendr1ck]

If you are bankrolled for the game, then that shouldn't be a concern. But make sure you truly are - sounds like you'll want a minimum of $20K and maybe more. The bigger problem sounds like scared money. Better players and higher stakes are making you uncomfortable and affecting your play.

You might try buying in short for a while until you get more comfortable with the new stakes - maybe $500 with a stop loss of three buy-ins per session? You'll have to adjust your strategy, but you'll buy some time to get history with the newer, better players and make sure that the game is still beatable for you. After that, you can start bumping up your buy-in.

If you can't beat the game now, or the variance is just too painful, find a new game or "get good" (both much easier said than done, I know).

 

[Anthony Martino]

My experience would be more in-line with PLO and short buyins to games outside my roll or just facing deep-pocketed over-aggro types that try to make a game play larger than the advertised stakes, to put people out of their comfort zone and apply pressure since they have a deeper well of funds to fall back on.

I don't play a ton of hold em cash games, but I guess just select what is most comfortable for YOU. If that means you're playing almost a tournament strategy where you're only 20-50 bb's deep to avoid feeling over your head, then do that. Just be aware that having better players in the game will obviously make the game harder to beat, and possibly result in you beating it for less than you had before.

Alternatively, you could ask if they can do a night at stakes you're more comfortable with so you aren't forced to play in the higher stakes games that make you uncomfortable.

 

[grebe]

And being in state where we don't have casinos, it's not like I can just find another game or table. Its either this one, or nothing. I know the first question is am I bankrolled for this game? The answer is yes but it's just uncomfortable for the reasons stated above.

So has anyone gone through a similar experience? How did you adjust? What do you suggest? I can study and work on my game all I want...this isn't a study thing.

So my question is why are you playing poker? Is it for part of your income, or is it for enjoyment...or another reason....

If it is for part of your income, I would take a hard look at this game from a profitability standpoint. i.e. can you beat it still with new players? Is the uptick in stakes actually good for your margins? What kind of losses would be acceptable. Wrap your mind around this and figure out a way to get comfortable if you think it's still profitable.

If it is for your enjoyment (we all LIKE to win), start asking around. This CANNOT be the only game in town. Maybe you have to travel a little bit for a good game that you enjoy. I have a game in my back yard practically, but would rather travel 45 minutes to a game I enjoy playing at. Because, though I LIKE to win, I don't have to to make rent. This is what I do for fun.

 

[DrStrange]

Hero doesn't have to play. If it isn't fun, why are you at the table?

If you do play consider buying in short and play a short stack strategy. This has quite a lot of variance but solid expected value. You might get uninvited though.

 

[codeman00]

If you are bankrolled for the game, then that shouldn't be a concern. But make sure you truly are - sounds like you'll want a minimum of $20K and maybe more. The bigger problem sounds like scared money. Better players and higher stakes are making you uncomfortable and affecting your play.

You might try buying in short for a while until you get more comfortable with the new stakes - maybe $500 with a stop loss of three buy-ins per session? You'll have to adjust your strategy, but you'll buy some time to get history with the newer, better players and make sure that the game is still beatable for you. After that, you can start bumping up your buy-in.

If you can't beat the game now, or the variance is just too painful, find a new game or "get good" (both much easier said than done, I know).

So yeah, let's talk about that. Scared money is definitely the issue here. I would take $2500 to the game (then), buy in for $400, top off after a loss, and never had a loss of more than $1200...winning as much as $1400 on a good night....mostly on the winning side. Now the game has ballooned. I still start off with the same amount in my pocket, same buyin, etc. But yeah, now it seems to have more in my pocket and be comfortable with a larger possible loss. Now my $25 preflop raise will meet $60-$90 preflop 3bets. And if I'm OOP, then things get, well complicated and the scared money comes into to play. If I'm $400 up, that can disappear with a bad flop and high positional pressure. So yes, scared money. I just can't function correctly and my game has turned into very little post flop play because of it.

Another thing I fear is that when I get down (let's say $400) that I won't be able to make it back due to my fear of not wanting to play in a big pot or take that big risk in a large multiway pot with correct pot odds on a good draw. Now I know if I play correct bet amounts and to my abilities, I'll be fine...i just can't seem to adjust.

Thinking of my bankroll going from $5,000 to $20,000 seems to make the money much more impactful.

So my question is why are you playing poker? Is it for part of your income, or is it for enjoyment...or another reason....

If it is for part of your income, I would take a hard look at this game from a profitability standpoint. i.e. can you beat it still with new players? Is the uptick in stakes actually good for your margins? What kind of losses would be acceptable. Wrap your mind around this and figure out a way to get comfortable if you think it's still profitable.

If it is for your enjoyment (we all LIKE to win), start asking around. This CANNOT be the only game in town. Maybe you have to travel a little bit for a good game that you enjoy. I have a game in my back yard practically, but would rather travel 45 minutes to a game I enjoy playing at. Because, though I LIKE to win, I don't have to to make rent. This is what I do for fun.

I love the game and I've realized I'm decently good at it. And last year, it was a great hourly rate...before the game changed. So I found it to be a hobby that actually pays me money vs. everyone else's hobby of draining their wallets. I started to expect the money to come in and just haven't been able to adjust to my new surroundings. I'm still a slight winner for the year, but the graph has flatlined for sure.

Hero doesn't have to play. If it isn't fun, why are you at the table?

If you do play consider buying in short and play a short stack strategy. This has quite a lot of variance but solid expected value. You might get uninvited though.

There are still several short stackers at the table with the $2000 buyins. I'm not the worst of the bunch....somewhere in the middle. I almost feel like I'm playing short stack at 80bb...but I'm toying over this more short stack strategy.

 

[codeman00]

Hero doesn't have to play. If it isn't fun, why are you at the table?

That's why I'm here asking...because this game has turned from a fun 2nd job into painful...and I'm trying to get help to do something to fix it.

 

[tabletalker7]

That's why I'm here asking...because this game has turned from a fun 2nd job into painful...and I'm trying to get help to do something to fix it.

You fix it by going back to your comfort area. That probably means leaving the current game but it is what it is. You have to be you.

 

[Colquhoun]

Maybe reach out to others to find out if they are equally uncomfortable with the uptick in stakes?
Maybe some players could break off and start their own game at the lower stakes.

 

[upNdown]

Is $20k even enough to be properly rolled for this game? I would think not, but I’ve never played with an actual bankroll. But if it is enough, and you have it, and you’re still not comfortable, maybe you need to see a sports psychiatrist or something. I mean unless there are enough new players with significantly better skills, you should be able keep beating the game, right?

Anyway, I go through a similar experience every time I play a $1/2 or $1/3 big bet game - I’m not comfortable with those stakes and so I lose. And so I rarely play those stakes - for me it’s either home cash game microstakes or casino tournaments. So my “advice” would be either get comfortable or get out.

 

[codeman00]

Is $20k even enough to be properly rolled for this game? I would think not, but I’ve never played with an actual bankroll. But if it is enough, and you have it, and you’re still not comfortable, maybe you need to see a sports psychiatrist or something. I mean unless there are enough new players with significantly better skills, you should be able keep beating the game, right?

Anyway, I go through a similar experience every time I play a $1/2 or $1/3 big bet game - I’m not comfortable with those stakes and so I lose. And so I rarely play those stakes - for me it’s either home cash game microstakes or casino tournaments. So my “advice” would be either get comfortable or get out.

I too haven't ever had a bankroll. My bankroll is my liferoll and there's enough to easily sustain a $1/$2 or $1/$3 at my skill level. So yeah, I don't know at all how much I need for this new version of the game. I do still think I'm better than most that play there, except for my deficiency in being able to pull the trigger when I know its correct. Out of fear of something...idk. It took me awhile to be able to shove stacks at $1/$2 but this is on a new level.

So, yeah, I will talk to the other players...and figure out if I'm going to buck up or not play there as often. This is very helpful...every time I post on a poker forum, I get nothing but you need to study this or that.....Not real advice on big picture and mental aspects of the game.

 

[Kain8]

I wouldn't be too worried. It sounds like this game is going to burn really bright, really fast, and fizzle out. You could be back to your normal stacks and action within the year possibly.

 

[Senzrock]

You’re in a tough spot. I would echo others who have asked if this actually is the only game in town, or, alternatively, might there be a pathway to hosting or co-hosting a regular game with 1 or more players that you’ve gotten to know at this point?

Feeling uncomfortable with the stakes puts us in so many bad spots. We are less profitable (partially because of the scared money factor but largely I would guess because now this game actually attracts pros or semi-pros, players who are at the very least not making those big mistakes that a significant amount of your previous income was coming from).

The good news is that you are batting hard at it seems like at least breaking even. You are also putting in work studying away from the table. Breaking even in this game might be a bigger accomplishment than you are giving yourself credit for. Perhaps it is something where you can continue to put in volume and break even through the rest of the year and reassess the game as, less of an income generating spot and more of a challenge where you look at it as improving your overall game if not your bottom line. If you can take some pleasure in that, it might still be worthwhile to keep at it.

If it continues to feel like it’s not fun however, whether that’s because of your bottom line or just continually feeling uncomfortable while you are sitting at the table, then I would take a break. You might feel recharged after sitting the game out a few weeks and looking forward to the “new challenge” or you might feel motivated to find/create that “other” game in town. I can’t imagine most amateurs feel comfortable at these kinds of stakes so I just have to guess that there’s a market for something else.

 

[Rhodeman77]

I normally play $1/2 blinds but often find myself in $1/2/5, $5/5 and sometimes even a $5/10 game. At each step up in games I adjust by playing a tighter range preflop and am much more concerned about position. That said, you still need to be aggressive when you do play a pot or you will be run over.

The alternative is to try to start up your own game.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Lots of good advice in this thread, and I think "find/start a new game" seems to be one of the best ideas.

There are still several short stackers at the table with the $2000 buyins. I'm not the worst of the bunch....somewhere in the middle.

This screams to me that you are far from the only player who is uncomfortable with the new stakes. I'd bet there would be significant interest in a new game at the old stakes.

 

[JScott]

I mean, you're here, so that means you have the capability to run your own game. You're probably not the only one uncomfortable with the stakes. I found this happened recently to me, unfortunately for them it went from 25c/50c with great chips & table with a dedicated dealer (me), to $1/$2 with dice chips since I no longer run their game. It's sad too, because they're great people.

I'm not hard up by any means, but I'm not a fan of playing outside of my comfort zone. So I just have a separate game from them now. You should do the same.

 

[Machine]

I would note the long-term players, get contact information, touch base to see if anyone else is looking for a smaller game; and let the host know.

I would then stop attending the game, and after a month or two start your own game on a different night, and it sounds like you have a player base that would play =-)

 

[Legend5555]

What is the rake in this game by the way?

 

[grebe]

Yeah, I am with about everybody else. You gotta find another game. They are out there, you just gotta put in the work and wrap your head around having to drive a bit further than you want.

EDIT: DUDE! you are in NASHVILLE! I could find a game in Nashville and I've never been there! I thought you were in the sticks somewhere. come on...

 

[JustinInMN]

Yeah, I am with about everybody else. You gotta find another game. They are out there, you just gotta put in the work and wrap your head around having to drive a bit further than you want.

EDIT: DUDE! you are in NASHVILLE! I could find a game in Nashville and I've never been there! I thought you were in the sticks somewhere. come on...

I am glad to here there is a good underground scene in Tennessee. My impression has always been they are one of the more hostile states when it comes to gambling.

 

[CrazyEddie]

There's formal ways to manage your bankroll: how to calculate how much you need in reserves in order to play at a certain level, how to keep your reserves properly accounted for, etc... but the fundamental of bankroll management is this:

Even a winning player must be willing to lose, and to lose big. If you can beat the game then you'll be making money in the long run, but to beat the game you have to be ready to put all your money in the middle of the table, several times a night, and go home with empty pockets. If that makes you hesitate, then your bankroll is too small for the game you're playing.

This is even more true for rec players than pros! As a rec player, you should be not just willing but enthusiastic about getting your money in - because if you're not enjoying yourself, you're wasting your time. You'd be better off not playing, and if you absolutely can't find (or host) a game you enjoy, spending that time on your other interests.

Try to figure out whether your discomfort with the new stakes is merely due to it being different and unfamiliar, or whether it's because the game is inappropriate for your current financial situation. If it's the former, you may find yourself mentally adjusting to it in time, and you may find ways to help make that adjustment happen faster. If it's the latter, you must stop playing in that game until your circumstances warrant it. Some introspection will reveal which of these two cases is true. Remember that the human mind is exceptionally good at rationalizing and that therefore it's very easy to fool yourself - but at the same time, that little voice in the back of your head is always there to tell you the truth whenever you're ready to listen.

 

[toothpic]

The increase in stakes can definitely get intimidating as we start to think more about the money involved rather then focusing on the hand. Some questions for you.

1. Do you feel the majority of players who now show up the game are better than you?
2. Do you think you just need time to adjust and learn the way the new players play or will the amount of money involved always weigh down your action?
3. Would you like to eventually play regularly at a higher stakes game such as this one?

Moving up in stakes can be nerve racking especially when the move up is forced on you. If you are properly rolled for the stakes the game has become this may be a good opportunity to continue to try it out and see if you can adjust. If you feel that you're at a big disadvantage with the new group, I agree with others that it's probably best to find a new game for now and maybe revisit the larger game later. Aside from the stakes going up so your mind is always thinking about the amount involved, you're also playing with new players you're not as familiar with. From what you have described, the new players are also more aggressive so I think this only adds more to the stress.

I think in order to get comfortable there's some factors involved

1. You need to have a willingness to move up in stakes. If you're not interested in this I don't know that you could adjust or get comfortable.
2. You need to get acclimated with the players you'll be playing against. This may require improving your skill and play or just getting to understand the players you'll be against more. You might not be able to open as widely from early position as you were able to do previously since there's a higher chance now that players will challenge you with a 3x.
3. It may require several sessions before you can get to a point where you know if you can or cannot make this move. I'm not sure if you mentioned how many times you've played in the new format, but if it's been several already do you feel that you're adjusting to it or is it just as intimidating as the first time or two?

 

[Goldfish]

I mean, you're here, so that means you have the capability to run your own game. You're probably not the only one uncomfortable with the stakes. I found this happened recently to me, unfortunately for them it went from 25c/50c with great chips & table with a dedicated dealer (me), to $1/$2 with dice chips since I no longer run their game. It's sad too, because they're great people.

I'm not hard up by any means, but I'm not a fan of playing outside of my comfort zone. So I just have a separate game from them now. You should do the same.

I was reading through this and thinking the same thing. Just build your own game. Shouldn’t be too hard. Then you control what happens. I know a few guys who would sell you some awesome chips, and build you a table, and a custom chip box……..

 

[Legend5555]

When you say the new players coming on are "better," how much better exactly? When you first move up in stakes, it's common to think all these new players are better, and often they either aren't, or aren't so much better you can't still beat them assuming you have some skills usually it's just a scared money problem.

 

[Coyote]

If the stakes are not comfortable, you just don't play. Period. Scared money is lost money.

I 'd start my own game instead.
Recruiting has its own perils. Nice and honest guys, bankrolled for much higher than the stakes of a given game cannot be dealt with.

That's why I 've always been a proponent of capping the game (edit: for home games I mean) on a per player / per session basis.
If your nice and cute new guy comes into an $1/2 game with $5K in his pocket, the game is NOT going to run as $1/2, unless you don't allow more than, let's say, 800BBs ($1,600 in this case) to be tabled by a single player in a single session.

 

[Jonesey07]

The Nashville scene isn’t great unless you know the right people.

Yeah, I am with about everybody else. You gotta find another game. They are out there, you just gotta put in the work and wrap your head around having to drive a bit further than you want.

EDIT: DUDE! you are in NASHVILLE! I could find a game in Nashville and I've never been there! I thought you were in the sticks somewhere. come on...

 

[Mojo1312]

There are still several short stackers at the table with the $2000 buyins. I'm not the worst of the bunch....somewhere in the middle. I almost feel like I'm playing short stack at 80bb...but I'm toying over this more short stack strategy.

You are playing short stack at 80BB's. I recently sat and played at a $2/$5 table where three or four players had stacks of $2,500 to $4,000 and the other players had stacks of $1,000 to $2,000. One player thought he would join the game with $500. The other players immediately perceived weakness, that he lacked the confidence to buy-in for the table max of $1,000 and like sharks that smell blood, exploited him accordingly.

Rhodeman summed up nicely three key adjustments you will want to incorporate into your game. @Payback?

I too haven't ever had a bankroll. My bankroll is my liferoll and there's enough to easily sustain a $1/$2 or $1/$3 at my skill level. So yeah, I don't know at all how much I need for this new version of the game. I do still think I'm better than most that play there, except for my deficiency in being able to pull the trigger when I know its correct. Out of fear of something...idk.

Your winnings should support your game. IMO, a poker players bankroll and life-roll should not be pooled together.

You seem to win more often you lose. However, you stated that the size of your losses are similar to your wins. Unless you can reverse that so your wins are three to four times your losses, you will want to have a bankroll of 30K or more to play comfortably. Again, pay attention to position and hand selection. Third, overcome any fear that you may have playing aggressively (same goes with taking heat) at these stakes.

 

[louBdub]

My small blind worth…

Start your own game, and control it.

I play multiple games in a rotation, so my player pool can decide what table they wanna sit at.

ARIA set, $40 tournament
Pokerversary, winner takes all
Pocket Change, .5c/.10c
Majestic. $1/$2

Rotate them. Micro guys get to play, and the 1/2 get to throw cash around, and the tournament folks enjoy the full game with only $40 at risk. Everyone wins.

This way you can decide what level of thiiiiicccccness you wanna get involved with

 

[Payback]

You are playing short stack at 80BB's. I recently sat and played at a $2/$5 table where three or four players had stacks of $2,500 to $4,000 and the other players had stacks of $1,000 to $2,000. One player thought he would join the game with $500. The other players immediately perceived weakness, that he lacked the confidence to buy-in for the table max of $1,000 and like sharks that smell blood, exploited him accordingly.

Rhodeman summed up nicely three key adjustments you will want to incorporate into your game. @Payback

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