Tourney First time running STT, sanity check please (1 Viewer)

[HebbNH]

Hey all! I’ve finally convinced my home game group to try a tourney instead of our usual cash game when we play this Thursday. We’ve been playing cash games off and on for 20 years now, so I’m well versed in running a game, but tournaments are obviously a different animal. I’ve been researching here the past couple days and think I have a decent grasp on things, but would welcome any feedback you all can provide to make sure I’m on the right track. This is a friendly/casual game and I’ve tried to set up the tourney to reflect that. On to the details:

Format: $25 “pre-buy” (buy-in includes either one rebuy OR one add-on). I may bump this up a bit as our normal cash game is 25¢/50¢ with a $40-$100 buy-in, but I don’t want anyone feeling like they’re risking too much in an experiment they may not be entirely comfortable with. T25 base with T20K starting stacks, 12/12/5/6/2 breakdown. Re-buy OR add-on for another T20K. 6-8 players expected, so T240K-T320K total chips in play.

Blind structure: 15 minute levels. Aiming for approximately 4 hour duration. No antes. Re-buys end / add-ons added approximately 2 hours in. 90 minutes might be a more appropriate time for that, but I want to make sure everyone gets plenty of play time since this is new and everyone gets at least that much time in our normal cash game.

50 - 100
75 - 150
100 - 200
150 - 300
Short break, color up T25
200 - 400
300 - 600
400 - 800
600 - 1200
Short break, end re-buys / add add-ons
800 - 1600
1200 - 2400
1600 - 3200
2000 - 4000
Short break, color up T100 and T500
3000 - 6000
4000 - 8000
6000 - 12000 (EEoT with 6 players)
8000 - 16000 (EEoT with 8 players)
12000 - 24000
16000 - 32000
20000 - 40000

Comments? Concerns? Is coloring up the T500 really even necessary? Anything I’m missing? Feedback appreciated!

Obligatory stack pr0n:

 

[merkong]

I’m sure you got this.

We went the other direction; tourneys to straight cash games. What’s your motivation?

 

[BGinGA]

Hey all! I’ve finally convinced my home game group to try a tourney instead of our usual cash game when we play this Thursday. We’ve been playing cash games off and on for 20 years now, so I’m well versed in running a game, but tournaments are obviously a different animal. I’ve been researching here the past couple days and think I have a decent grasp on things, but would welcome any feedback you all can provide to make sure I’m on the right track. This is a friendly/casual game and I’ve tried to set up the tourney to reflect that. On to the details:

Format: $25 “pre-buy” (buy-in includes either one rebuy OR one add-on). I may bump this up a bit as our normal cash game is 25¢/50¢ with a $40-$100 buy-in, but I don’t want anyone feeling like they’re risking too much in an experiment they may not be entirely comfortable with. T25 base with T20K starting stacks, 12/12/5/6/2 breakdown. Re-buy OR add-on for another T20K. 6-8 players expected, so T240K-T320K total chips in play.

Blind structure: 15 minute levels. Aiming for approximately 4 hour duration. No antes. Re-buys end / add-ons added approximately 2 hours in. 90 minutes might be a more appropriate time for that, but I want to make sure everyone gets plenty of play time since this is new and everyone gets at least that much time in our normal cash game.

50 - 100
75 - 150
100 - 200
150 - 300
Short break, color up T25
200 - 400
300 - 600
400 - 800
600 - 1200
Short break, end re-buys / add add-ons
800 - 1600
1200 - 2400
1600 - 3200
2000 - 4000
Short break, color up T100 and T500
3000 - 6000
4000 - 8000
6000 - 12000 (EEoT with 6 players)
8000 - 16000 (EEoT with 8 players)
12000 - 24000
16000 - 32000
20000 - 40000

Comments? Concerns? Is coloring up the T500 really even necessary? Anything I’m missing? Feedback appreciated!

Obligatory stack pr0n:
View attachment 1098003

Looks perfect.

Only changes to structure I'd make would be:
L10 1000/2000 (or 1100/2200)
L11 1500/3000

You can then start pulling T100s out earlier during play (have the big stack buy them from players, and exchange the T100s in bulk for T1000s). Makes that last break go much smoother/quicker.

Everything else looks fine. We use a very similar structure with 20-minute levels that lasts about 5 hours.

 

[HebbNH]

I’m sure you got this.

We went the other direction; tourneys to straight cash games. What’s your motivation?

Motivation is twofold. One, all we ever do is play cash, so it’d be nice to do something a little different now and then. Two, I bought these Zens on a whim and gotta get ‘em in play somehow, lol.

Looks perfect.

Only changes to structure I'd make would be:
L10 1000/2000 (or 1100/2200)
L11 1500/3000

You can then start pulling T100s out earlier during play (have the big stack buy them from players, and exchange the T100s in bulk for T1000s). Makes that last break go much smoother/quicker.

Everything else looks fine. We use a very similar structure with 20-minute levels that lasts about 5 hours.

Awesome! Noted regarding level adjustments. Given that there will only be 30-40 T500 in play, would you bother coloring those up, or just let them ride?

A secondary consideration that follows from that is this set only has 60 x T1K, which is a bit light compared to the usual recommendations. It does have 40 x T5K and 5 x T25K to compensate, so total bank for color ups isn’t a concern. However, coloring up the T500s would leave only 96 - 100 physical chips in play by my calculation, depending on the number of entrants. From my reading, that seems workable, but less than ideal. Does leaving the T500s in play solve that, or am I overthinking?

 

[4SUMERZ]

I’m sure you got this.

We went the other direction; tourneys to straight cash games. What’s your motivation?

We did the same. Tourney has many sitting it out after a bust. The guys prefer cash as a time limit can be set, and then cash out. There are many other benefits to cash games.
Tourneys are fun in certain settings and it looks like you have a good plan.
Good Luck and enjoy it. A change of pace is always good.

 

[merkong]

We did the same. Tourney has many sitting it out after a bust. The guys prefer cash as a time limit can be set, and then cash out. There are many other benefits to cash games.
Tourneys are fun in certain settings.

Also as a guy that hosts twice a week, I can roll a game with 5, 6 or a full table. Way less work when it comes to hosting.

Also, people can and do come as they please. None of that “should we blind them out” for stragglers.

 

[4SUMERZ]

Also as a guy that hosts twice a week, I can roll a game with 5, 6 or a full table. Way less work when it comes to hosting.

Also, people can and do come as they please. None of that “should we blind them out” for stragglers.

Also as a guy that hosts twice a week, I can roll a game with 5, 6 or a full table. Way less work when it comes to hosting.

Also, people can and do come as they please. None of that “should we blind them out” for stragglers.

Agree fully, thus why cash is best for home games. It's a more social atmosphere than tourneys play.

 

[merkong]

Agree fully, thus why cash is best for home games. It's a more social atmosphere than tourneys play.

Now, a large MTT might have a cash game every time as people bust. It’s more of a one off and rare with a STT.

Also, if I bust out of tourney that’s a loss. In a cash game there’s usually a pathway to the green almost right up to the cash out.

Way more social. No grinding, furrowed brows, clock watching, blinds on your butt.

After switching we’ve never looked back.

 

[Statesvegas]

We started out with STTs at my house followed by a cash game after, but every single one of my players prefers cash games to tournament play. I cant remember the last time we played a tournament in my basement, and we play cash games at least twice a month.

 

[4SUMERZ]

We started out with STTs at my house followed by a cash game after, but every single one of my players prefers cash games to tournament play. I cant remember the last time we played a tournament in my basement, and we play cash games at least twice a month.

We started with tourney play as well. Once we went to cash, no one wants to go back. Cash games also allows to change it up by injecting circus games to change it up a bit. We do dealer choice between 3 options of hold'em, Pineapple and Omaha

 

[Senzrock]

Nice structure but as @BGinGA noted this will be closer to 5 hours than 4 on average. If you wanted to keep it closer to 4 I would cut out a few levels. Also much prefer keeping the 500/1k and 1500/3k levels in instead of levels like 400/800 or 1600/3200. Get those 100s colored up earlier!

 

[HebbNH]

Nice structure but as @BGinGA noted this will be closer to 5 hours than 4 on average. If you wanted to keep it closer to 4 I would cut out a few levels. Also much prefer keeping the 500/1k and 1500/3k levels in instead of levels like 400/800 or 1600/3200.

That…is not what he said. His runs around 5 hours with 20 minute levels. My levels are 15 minutes which means mine should run an hour or more shorter.

Going to replace the 1200-2400 and 1600-3200 levels with 1000-2000 and 1500-3000. Same deal with the late 12K-24K and 16K-32K levels, not that we should get to those anyway.

Out of curiosity, if you go to 500-1000 and remove the T100s, what’s your next level? 500-1500 or 1000-2000? I don’t find either of those very appealing.

 

[Senzrock]

That…is not what he said. His runs around 5 hours with 20 minute levels. My levels are 15 minutes which means mine should run an hour or more shorter.

Going to replace the 1200-2400 and 1600-3200 levels with 1000-2000 and 1500-3000. Same deal with the late 12K-24K and 16K-32K levels, not that we should get to those anyway.

Out of curiosity, if you go to 500-1000 and remove the T100s, what’s your next level? 500-1500 or 1000-2000? I don’t find either of those very appealing.

Sorry didn’t read as carefully. Let me put it this way, I run a weekly T20k rebuy SNG (no add ons) with 15 min levels and we skip a few of the levels above and average 4.5 hours of play so I guess that’s where I was coming from.

We have not done a good job removing the 100s soon enough (just had a conversation about that this week), but we remove them after the 1200/2400 level. We skip 150/300 and don’t have 1600/3200.

 

[Senzrock]

My suggestion is have rebuys but no add ons and end the rebuys after level 5. Then the following levels:

50 - 100
75 - 150
100 - 200
200 - 400
250 - 500

End of Rebuy. Color up T25 (no official break, do this while playing assuming it’s just 8-9 stacks).

300 - 600
400 - 800
500 - 1000
600 - 1200

Short break, color up T100

1k - 2k
1500 - 3000
2000 - 4000
2500 - 5000
3000 - 6000
4000 - 8000
5000 - 10k (SNG without add ons generally ends around this level - we end here).

 

[Senzrock]

If you want to color up the 500s, you can skip 2500/5k obviously and go up to 6/12k. That’s your best bet for a tight 4 hour game I think, if that’s an important goal.

 

[Mandos]

My 2c, If you normally buyin for 40-100 make the buyin at least $40 if it includes the rebuy. Otherwise people will feel like it's not worth their time.

 

[ekricket]

Agree fully, thus why cash is best for home games. It's a more social atmosphere than tourneys play.

Just sitting around shooting the shit with everyone, including the non poker players, is more social atmosphere than playing poker when there’s people that don’t play.

So tournament playing is more serious, or more adult than cash games? If it’s less social it must be more about playing the game, not casual cash plunking around?

I’d rather play in a good serious poker game than sit around and bullshit about a football game I don’t even play in I guess. That’s just me

 

[BGinGA]

Noted regarding level adjustments. Given that there will only be 30-40 T500 in play, would you bother coloring those up, or just let them ride?

A secondary consideration that follows from that is this set only has 60 x T1K, which is a bit light compared to the usual recommendations. It does have 40 x T5K and 5 x T25K to compensate, so total bank for color ups isn’t a concern. However, coloring up the T500s would leave only 96 - 100 physical chips in play by my calculation, depending on the number of entrants. From my reading, that seems workable, but less than ideal. Does leaving the T500s in play solve that, or am I overthinking?

With up to two barrels of T500s in play and only three barrels of T1000s in the set, I'd want to get all 60 of those T1000 chips on the table as soon as possible (via starting stacks and/or initial color-ups). You'll want a reasonable number of T5000 chips in play in the latter levels of play, too.

With only 30-40 T500s, it won't hurt anything to leave them in play to the end, but having just 100 total chips in play at tournament finish is perfectly fine, too (80-200 total chips is acceptable, with 120-160 being optimum imo).

 

[BGinGA]

My suggestion is have rebuys but no add ons and end the rebuys after level 5. Then the following levels:

50 - 100
75 - 150
100 - 200
200 - 400
250 - 500

End of Rebuy. Color up T25 (no official break, do this while playing assuming it’s just 8-9 stacks).

300 - 600
400 - 800
500 - 1000
600 - 1200

Short break, color up T100

1k - 2k
1500 - 3000
2000 - 4000
2500 - 5000
3000 - 6000
4000 - 8000
5000 - 10k (SNG without add ons generally ends around this level - we end here).

Having erratic level increases ranging from 20% to 100% jumps makes no logical sense.

 

[Senzrock]

Having erratic level increases ranging from 20% to 100% jumps makes no logical sense.

You mean just the jump between level 2 and 3? It’s just too many early levels so we made a decision to cut 150/300 instead of 250/500. Do you think this impacts game play in any real way? Genuinely curious.

 

[merkong]

Just sitting around shooting the shit with everyone, including the non poker players, is more social atmosphere than playing poker when there’s people that don’t play.

So tournament playing is more serious, or more adult than cash games? If it’s less social it must be more about playing the game, not casual cash plunking around?

I’d rather play in a good serious poker game than sit around and bullshit about a football game I don’t even play in I guess. That’s just me

I play serious poker no matter what the setting.

A person can’t be social and still be a serious poker player.

Grind on grinder.

 

[BGinGA]

You mean just the jump between level 2 and 3? It’s just too many early levels so we made a decision to cut 150/300 instead of 250/500. Do you think this impacts game play in any real way? Genuinely curious.

Yes. And cutting the 250/500 level instead of 150/300 (and swapping 500/1000 out for 800/1600) would be the more logical approach, minimizing dramatic swings in effective stack sizes as the event progresses.

Neither change will affect total time or color-up points, but the blind level transistions will be smoother.

 

[Senzrock]

Yes. And cutting the 250/500 level instead of 150/300 (and swapping 500/1000 out for 800/1600) would be the more logical approach, minimizing dramatic swings in effective stack sizes as the event progresses.

Makes sense, I guess I've always wanted to keep those "even" 500 and 1k bb levels in there subconsciously. Perhaps not the best way to go about it.

 

[BGinGA]

Makes sense, I guess I've always wanted to keep those "even" 500 and 1k bb levels in there subconsciously. Perhaps not the best way to go about it.

It's a somewhat common decision, mostly because really slow structures usually include them (but along with other extra levels that also help reduce the overall average increase per level). Few short-duration home tournament formats have the luxury of being able to use them effectively.

Will your structure 'work'? Yes. Are there better solutions? Yes. Are there any good or valid reasons to do it less optimally? Not really.

 

[Senzrock]

It's a somewhat common decision, mostly because really slow structures usually include them (but along with other extra levels that also help reduce the overall average increase per level). Few short-duration home tournament formats have the luxury of being able to use them effectively.

Will your structure 'work'? Yes. Are there better solutions? Yes. Are there any good or valid reasons to do it less optimally? Not really.

Makes sense. Like I mentioned, I've been running this structure for 10 years now with very good results but always looking to improve where we can. Thanks.

 

[JustinInMN]

I think the original structure is good. If you take @BGinGA 's advice and swap out 1200-2400 and 1600-3200 out for 1000-2000 and 1500-3000 respectively you can get those T100s out a little earlier.

Comments? Concerns? Is coloring up the T500 really even necessary? Anything I’m missing? Feedback appreciated!

You probably don't HAVE to color up the T500 chips, but if you keep your original structure and are going to take out the T100 chips before 2000-4000, no reason not to take the T500 out at the same time.

 

[JustinInMN]

Hey I asked this question 5 years ago . @BGinGA

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/color-up-question.30069/