Formula for min # of one denom on table before next denom? (1 Viewer)

[upNdown]

i remember reading here once - somebody had a formula for the minimum number of a chip denomination you’d want in a game, before selling people chips of the next higher denomination?
Not sure if it was an accepted, math-based sort of thing, or just one guy’s rule of thumb, or what. But I thought it might be useful for all the “how many chips should I buy threads,” to help people picture how their game might run.
The formula took into account how many players were at the table and how many of a chip it takes to make the next chip up. So if you’re talking about putting $20’s onto the table, (and it obviously takes 4 * $5 to make a $20) you’d need x number of $5’s per player on the table before you brought out $20’s, and x would be some multiple of 4 or something?
Is any of this ringing a bell for anybody?

 

[200 Motels]

Strange no one has answered this yet. It doesn't ring a bell but I'm interested in this too. Players at my home game don't just love poker, but they love complaining. Often about the quantity of specific denoms on the table at one time. I'm interested.

 

[GoStumpy]

My rule of thumb would be 1 barrel of each denom per player on the table as a maximum before introducing the next highest denom.

Once two racks of a denom are gone, in comes the next.

Then again, if I had enough buyins that would burn through 3 racks of $5's and still get some $25's on the table, I would likely try out moar chips..

 

[BGinGA]

Only advice I remember, applicable to big-bet games only:

smallest chip in play (usually a frac, but not always): an "incorrect" amount on the table wastes time (too few creates excessive change-making; too many slows down betting/counting).
workhorse chip (usually second-smallest, but not always): too few workhorse chips slows down the action (more chips = greater action). No such thing as too many workhorse chips.
larger chip(s): usually not needed until 1 rack per player of workhorse chips are already in play. Some people advocate 1/2-rack per player before introduction (not replacement).

 

[SWEATER]

I concur with the "workhorse" chip method. Never enough $1s on the table in my .25/50 game.

 

[detroitdad]

for my .25/.50 , 100 Max buy in the following works great for us

12 x .25, 17 x 1, 5 x 16.

First couple of rebuys are all fives. Then I move to the rebuy chip ( 20 or 25).

If someone cashes out early and they have alot of ones and fives I have someone at the table but them.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Like the perfect breakdown, there can be no perfect formula for every group.

If your group has a lot of limpers, you are going to need more of the smallest denom. 15-20 at least. If your smallest denom rarely sees any action beyond the initial blinds, 10-12 will be sufficient.

Likewise, the workhorse chips will see more play amongst stronger players that know how to isolate. Limpers might not need "workhorse" chips until the turn or the river.

Next denom up - the "rebuy chip" is extremely unlikely to be needed in a soft game, while a game with deeper wallets are going to need rebuy chips in 2 denoms.

When a new “how many chips should I buy" thread is started, I assume that the poster is inexperienced (an experienced host already knows where their set comes up short, if at all). Their game will probably be soft, and if they mention "limited budget" I can rule out the deep wallet.

 

[abby99]

I'll echo the statements that optimal chip allocations are related to the particular game.

For my .25/.50 big-bet game with a $100 max buy-in, I finally settled on an average of 14 quarters and 40 $1s per person, with the remainder in $5s. I round to barrels for quarters and racks for everything else, so for an 8-player table I'll use 120 quarters, 3 racks of $1s, and 2-3 racks of $5s. Once these are all out on the table, I'll introduce a higher denomination ($20 or $25).

Starting stacks don't need to be uniform: not all players buy in for the full amount, and not everybody arrives at the same time.

As others have mentioned, it's best to get the quarters and dollars on the table as soon as possible. The first 6 players receive a barrel of quarters, 2 barrels of $1s, and the remainder in $5s. Players 7 and 8 get 2 barrels of $1s and the remainder in $5s. Rebuys are in $5s, and then in $20s or $25s.

If a game tends to play bigger, I'd give the players only one barrel of $1s.

It took a while for me to settle on this distribution and to observe that an average of 14 quarters per person was the sweet spot for my group.

As with everything else on this site, YMMV.

You didn't ask, but for chip lovers, there's nothing quite like a limit game and enough workhorse chips to give each player 2-3 racks. In these games, using two denominations (e.g., $1 and $20) works best.

 

[Pointaker101]

OP, thanks for getting this started...something I'm questioning in our home games too. Lots of good info here.

 

[dimperdoo]

seems like YMMV is the best advice. i like a quarter game w/ lots of quarters ~but see many players who prefer fewer chips to keep track of

 

[Ronoh]

For .25/.50 and .50/1 I strongly suggest only putting one rack of fracs on the table. Some people push for a full barrel per player on the initial buyin and will point out its fun to get a bunch of chips when the game starts, less need to make change, etc but those reasons become moot very quickly after the cards start to fly.

There are players who enjoy betting them (raise to $3.50) and those who don’t (raise to $4). When the former wins pots they continue distributing them but when the latter wins they tend to bury and forget them at the back of their stack... ultimately a couple guys end up with the majority of them and the number in regular circulation will stay roughly the same whether there are one or two racks on the table.

Per the rest, ideal breakdown per table before breaking out the bigger denoms for me is 100 fracs, 200 $1s and 400 $5s if the game gets a decent amount of dough in to play. If you expect the game to end up with under $2000 in play I don’t mind putting in some 20/25 after getting two racks of $5s on the table.

 

[Pointaker101]

For .25/.50 and .50/1 I strongly suggest only putting one rack of fracs on the table. Some people push for a full barrel per player on the initial buyin and will point out its fun to get a bunch of chips when the game starts, less need to make change, etc but those reasons become moot very quickly after the cards start to fly.

There are players who enjoy betting them (raise to $3.50) and those who don’t (raise to $4). When the former wins pots they continue distributing them but when the latter wins they tend to bury and forget them at the back of their stack... ultimately a couple guys end up with the majority of them and the number in regular circulation will stay roughly the same whether there are one or two racks on the table.

Per the rest, ideal breakdown per table before breaking out the bigger denoms for me is 100 fracs, 200 $1s and 400 $5s if the game gets a decent amount of dough in to play. If you expect the game to end up with under $2000 in play I don’t mind putting in some 20/25 after getting two racks of $5s on the table.

Great point here regarding the fracs getting buried as the night wears on.

Guess it may also depend on if the game has a dealer or if the deal rotates. In our games w/ dealers, the dealer will often buy back fracs if he notices one player heavy on them, to then later distribute to the other players needing them. This is much faster than players counting down and buying from each other. Also heavily dependent on if the dealer is good enough to remain aware of this and keep the game moving. We don't rake, so it's not a matter of keeping it fast for profit, but rather so that players don't get tired of "dead time".

 

[dimperdoo]

the fastest way to handle the player lacking quarters is; come small blind/big blind, the player puts a dollar out for their blind {either} once the dealer pulls the pot in, they make change out of the pot {or the dealer's rack if present} for that player. e.g. 2 or 3 quarters tossed back

 

[Pointaker101]

the fastest way to handle the player lacking quarters is; come small blind/big blind, the player puts a dollar out for their blind {either} once the dealer pulls the pot in, they make change out of the pot {or the dealer's rack if present} for that player. e.g. 2 or 3 quarters tossed back

Dealer is best option!

 

[dimperdoo]

right? w/ any luck, the dealer is experienced at calculating chip transactions as well as cutting cheques & such as makes transactions speedy & legible

 

[upNdown]

THERE WAS A FORMULA!
It was like 10 x $5’s per player before the $35’s can come out, so change can be made. Or something like that.
I dunno. Maybe I read it on the blue wall.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I could make you a formula if you'd like.

 

[upNdown]

I play in a small quarters game where people usually buy in for $20 initially. Early on one night, my buddy wanted to rebuy for $30, but he wanted one of the big $20 chips because they’re cool. Usually I’m happy to accommodate but I remember looking at the table and thinking, there are only like 6 fives in play right now. After you donk through that first $10, you’re gonna have to make a 50 cent bet with your $20 chip and it’s gonna oarylize the game.
I don’t know if I read THE FORMULA before that or after that. But like I said, it could be helpful for noobs.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Untested - but in theory is should work...

P*R*3

P=Players at the table
R=Ratio of smaller chip to next chip

So with quarters and $1, the ratio is 4:1 (R=4)

With a 10 player game, you would need (10*4*3) 120 quarters on the table before you brought out your first $1 chip.

 

[upNdown]

Untested - but in theory is should work...

P*R*3

P=Players at the table
R=Ratio of smaller chip to next chip

So with quarters and $1, the ratio is 4:1 (R=4)

With a 10 player game, you would need (10*4*3) 120 quarters on the table before you brought out your first $1 chip.

The one I read was much more conservative. Or less? It was designed for bare minimums. For example, I’m fine if people want to buy a $20 chip as long as there’s like 8 fives per player, or maybe less, because SOMEBODY will have a bunch and be able to make change.
Personally, I’d rather sell stacks and stacks and stacks of $1’s and 5’s, but if people want some $20’s out there too, I’m not gonna argue.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Well... at a bare minimum, the formula would be ((P+1)*R)-P+1

This would absolutely suck though. It would guarantee that the larger denom could be broken down by at least 1 player or the pot at any given time, assuming the worst case scenario - that all the smaller chips are equally distributed amongst the players and the pot.

Again, this is theoretical - and would suck - but this would be the bare minimum.

 

[Lemonzest]

I have already seen some feedback from people that use WAY less chips than me. This is my setup and it works so far.
20 NL 10c/20c blinds

Starting Stacks:
10c - 20
20c - 20
$1 - 4
$5 -2

My set is as follows:
10c - 300 pcs
20c - 300 pcs
$1 - 100 pcs
$5 - 100 pcs
$10 - 100 pcs

We play 20 NL with about 4-9 guys depending on the turnout for the night. We will easily get 4-8 rebuys pre night. Last time my hundo rack was almost totally on the table after one guy tilted and made a rebuy of 50 in dollars.

The thing is I hate making change as it slows down the game. I like every rebuy to be the exact same as the initial buy in. It is also so easy to grab 20 chips as that is a complete barrel. So far this setup has been very efficient and makes for a fast game. Also everyone always has enough for blinds and people aren't trying to make change slowing down the flow.

I am using CC which is nice as it allows me to have a lot of chips without breaking the bank.