Tourney How long will my tourney last? (2 Viewers)

[WoodenMonkeyLamp]

Planning a 10 person tourney with 15 minute levels and the structure below. I saw the 80% rule which looks like it works for this BUT I’d like to offer up to 1 rebuy for the first six levels and 20k starting stacks if possible. 4ish hours would be ideal, do I need to go to 15k stacks or cut the rebuy?

TLDR
20k stacks
15 minute levels
1 rebuy first 6 levels

 

[doublebooyah85]

I ran this single table tourney last night and it was 4 hours on the dot w T25k starting stacks had 4 rebuys and 2 add ons…

Took maybe 4.5 hours. And I think it was 5 rebuys.

BB ante is totally unnecessary for a STT.

 

[BPTDirector]

I ran this single table tourney last night and it was 4 hours on the dot w T25k starting stacks had 4 rebuys and 2 add ons…

View attachment 1185700

How long were the blinds rounds??

Nevermind. I’m a dumbass.

 

[WoodenMonkeyLamp]

I ran this single table tourney last night and it was 4 hours on the dot w T25k starting stacks had 4 rebuys and 2 add ons…

Took maybe 4.5 hours. And I think it was 5 rebuys.

BB ante is totally unnecessary for a STT.

View attachment 1185700

Oh wow, so that’s encouraging, maybe I’ll use this faster structure. Do you remember what level the tourney was over? Did you make it to the 5000/10000?

 

[doublebooyah85]

Oh wow, so that’s encouraging, maybe I’ll use this faster structure. Do you remember what level the tourney was over? Did you make it to the 5000/10000?

Yes we did. Ended first few hands of 10k-20k

 

[WoodenMonkeyLamp]

Also this is the first time I’m hearing no BBA for single table - what’s the reasoning behind that?

 

[GetUrShineBox]

BBA are necessary for any tournament. It’s just a way to speed up the game so people can’t fold for hours and only lose the regular blinds. You can do the same by increasing the blinds more quickly.

 

[WoodenMonkeyLamp]

BBA are necessary for any tournament. It’s just a way to speed up the game so people can’t fold for hours and only lose the regular blinds. You can do the same by increasing the blinds more quickly.

Yeah that was my thought too, with the advantage of allowing for bigger starting stacks and slower level jumps but still finishing in a reasonable time. I get Negreanu’s argument about head’s up play but it seems limited to that only.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Antes are completely unnecessary. They do very little to the overall length of the tournament, unless your players tend to chop.

Limiting each player to a single rebuy will also have a rather minor effect on the tournament length. They add more chips, but you can expect between 3-5 players to rebuy in a 10 player event, which at most would add 1 level. Add-ons would add a couple levels.

When calculating how many minutes/hours the tournament will last, it helps to add the breaks into the structure. It will take time to color up chips, and depending on how your players drink and what your restroom options are, time will be required to cycle everyone through.

If you really want to avoid the tournament running long, you can eliminate level 16 and go directly to level 17.

I would not use the structure @doublebooyah85 posted. Those last 3 levels take a fun 4 hour tournament and make it a chop or flip game. It looks like a casino structure where they did not want to pay the dealers beyond the break.

 

[doublebooyah85]

Antes are completely unnecessary. They do very little to the overall length of the tournament, unless your players tend to chop.

Limiting each player to a single rebuy will also have a rather minor effect on the tournament length. They add more chips, but you can expect between 3-5 players to rebuy in a 10 player event, which at most would add 1 level. Add-ons would add a couple levels.

When calculating how many minutes/hours the tournament will last, it helps to add the breaks into the structure. It will take time to color up chips, and depending on how your players drink and what your restroom options are, time will be required to cycle everyone through.

If you really want to avoid the tournament running long, you can eliminate level 16 and go directly to level 17.

I would not use the structure @doublebooyah85 posted. Those last 3 levels take a fun 4 hour tournament and make it a chop or flip game. It looks like a casino structure where they did not want to pay the dealers beyond the break.

Hmmm idk @POKER Zombie…
We started at 745pm
It lasted until 12:30
4 players were ITM at midnight, at the 3-6k level
People have lives we can’t have a 6 hour tourney.
Breaks are 5 min and I have a dealer with a shuffler.
Plenty of poker. Everyone saw well over 100 hands.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Hmmm idk @POKER Zombie…
We started at 745pm
It lasted until 12:30
4 players were ITM at midnight, at the 3-6k level
People have lives we can’t have a 6 hour tourney.
Breaks are 5 min and I have a dealer with a shuffler.
Plenty of poker. Everyone saw well over 100 hands.

I certainly understand the "lives" thing. I can't run a 6 hour tourney either.

But as I see it (YMMV) you are starting with T25,000 x 10 players = 250,000 chips
Rebuys (unlimited) average 4 (again YMMV). 100,000 (total 350,000)
Add-ons; I've only known the nittiest of players to skip an add-on. Both home and casino play you are getting 90-100% add-ons. Let's say you only get 80% to add-on (you do refer to them as nits on the structure). +200,000 more chips for 550,000 on the table.

Level 12 (3000 - 6000) You have 91+ BB on the table. You probably have 5-6 players still in the game, with ~16BB on average. In a home game this is just starting to get into the jam/fold after the flop zone, but you can pick your spot and see a flop. It's also close to the money in a 10 player tournament, so short stacks may tighten up a touch to preserve their fold equity.

You then got from a 20% jump to a 60% jump to a 100% jump with shorter levels! This is the meat and potatoes of tournament play. Who gets paid? Lets flip (or chop).

There are various ways to remedy this, including taking time 3-5 minutes off the 20 minute levels and adding both a 4000/8000 and a 7000/14,000. You could also reduce stack sizes, limit rebuys, make rebuys surrenders, or eliminate the add-on - but that sudden climb when just before the money is a casino-built "ok, did you guys want to chop" format.

 

[doublebooyah85]

I certainly understand the "lives" thing. I can't run a 6 hour tourney either.

But as I see it (YMMV) you are starting with T25,000 x 10 players = 250,000 chips
Rebuys (unlimited) average 4 (again YMMV). 100,000 (total 350,000)
Add-ons; I've only known the nittiest op players to skip an add-on. Both home and casino play you are getting 90-100% add-ons. Let's say you only get 80% to add-on (you do refer to them as nits on the structure). +200,000 more chips for 550,000 on the table.

Level 12 (3000 - 6000) You have 91+ BB on the table. You probably have 5-6 players still in the game, with ~16BB on average. In a home game this is just starting to get into the jam/fold after the flop zone, but you can pick your spot and see a flop. It's also close to the money in a 10 player tournament, so short stacks may tighten up a touch to preserve their fold equity.

You then got from a 20% jump to a 60% jump to a 100% jump with shorter levels! This is the meat and potatoes of tournament play. Who gets paid? Lets flip (or chop).

There are various ways to remedy this, including taking time 3-5 minutes off the 20 minute levels and adding both a 4000/8000 and a 7000/14,000. You could also reduce stack sizes, limit rebuys, make rebuys surrenders, or eliminate the add-on - but that sudden climb when just before the money is a casino-built "ok, did you guys want to chop" format.

Cool good suggestions I’ll implement, thanks for explaining too!

 

[WoodenMonkeyLamp]

Sharing how the tournament went as a data point. We had 13 players and I used the structure below with 20k stacks and 20 minute levels. I took out two levels because I was worried about time but it didn't really matter because the final 3 ICM chopped in level 10 (1500/3000). Total time was right at 3.5 hours including one 10 minute break and 5 rebuys.

If I did it again I would add a 200/300 level and another break (probably after levels 3 and 6). But overall definitely happy with how it went!

 

[buzzmonkey]

Sharing how the tournament went as a data point. We had 13 players and I used the structure below with 20k stacks and 20 minute levels. I took out two levels because I was worried about time but it didn't really matter because the final 3 ICM chopped in level 10 (1500/3000). Total time was right at 3.5 hours including one 10 minute break and 5 rebuys.

If I did it again I would add a 200/300 level and another break (probably after levels 3 and 6). But overall definitely happy with how it went!

View attachment 1190107

I agree with adding the 200/300.

I'd also consider changing the 800/1600 to 1000/1500 and the 1200/2400 to a 1000/2500 or 1500/2500 so you can color the 100s sooner. It might let you get more hands in.

 

[ekricket]

When calculating how many minutes/hours the tournament will last, it helps to add the breaks into the structure. It will take time to color up chips, and depending on how your players drink and what your restroom options are, time will be required to cycle everyone through.

This is very very important. If you don’t stay on top of it, your 15 minute breaks turn into 30 minute breaks. Those 5 minute ones turn into 15 easily.
You just have to be on top of it, like a casino, cards start flying the second the time runs out on break. That usually means the host gets the shortest breaks, but them’s the breaks. Anything you can do to streamline your color up and rebuy processes buys you precious break time.
Poor break management can easily add 45 minutes to a tournament. In social settings maybe that’s fine, our games kinda run like this but it’s time well spent. But if you have a hard stop or whatever you might keep an eye on this the most.

 

[wickedwonka121]

BBA are necessary for any tournament. It’s just a way to speed up the game so people can’t fold for hours and only lose the regular blinds. You can do the same by increasing the blinds more quickly.

I like shortening the blind levels. I haven't done 10min before. But 15 is speedy enough. We usually start with 100 bb. Unlimited rebuys for the first hour. This usually doubles the purse since there are so many maniacs out there. I don't think we would need 200 bb even though it's pretty standard if you ask on pcf. My games usually have a lot of action so people bust eachother quickly. A lot of the fish still believe in being "pot committed" so they make bad calls. Hehe

 

[buzzmonkey]

This is very very important. If you don’t stay on top of it, your 15 minute breaks turn into 30 minute breaks. Those 5 minute ones turn into 15 easily.
You just have to be on top of it, like a casino, cards start flying the second the time runs out on break. That usually means the host gets the shortest breaks, but them’s the breaks. Anything you can do to streamline your color up and rebuy processes buys you precious break time.
Poor break management can easily add 45 minutes to a tournament. In social settings maybe that’s fine, our games kinda run like this but it’s time well spent. But if you have a hard stop or whatever you might keep an eye on this the most.

I try to buy up the outgoing chips when I can afford it. People underestimate how much this can shorten the process.

 

[ValueTown]

I use Tournament Director and you can build your blinds and breaks. The program will show you the play time.

I use 10K starting stacks and 17 minute blinds. The Tournament is usually over in 4-5 hours. Late levels I add a BBA and aggressive increases. Last 3 ITM have the option to chop or decide on a split.