Cash Game Interesting Situation from Bar Game last Night (1 Viewer)

[Trihonda]

Background/Setting:

Small town bar, hosts tourneys on Sundays and Thursdays. Poker crowd is a mix of crazy personalities and old man coffee types. “Proper” etiquette is often thrown out the window. I rarely play this game, but it’s a low buyin tourney, and many of the regular crowd are fun and friendly (if not overly entertaining). With nothing on my docket for Thursday night, I figured I’d go hang out play some cards. Expectations are always low.


The tourney is over (30 entries). I min-cashed, and now we’re onto a spirited game of $.25/.50 NL. In the 30 mins the game has been playing before I sat down, one guy (call him “Fred”) has already bought in for $300+ and is on wild swings. He’s quite obviously high (likely heroin/weed mix), and making wild crazy plays (shoving all-in in weird spots). In 30 mins of play with Fred, I’ve watched his stack bounce back and forth between $0 and $300 several times. The table is starting to move from “modestly entertained” by his antics, to moderately annoyed…


In the hand in question, I’m in EP with . There’s modest betting pre, with around 5 callers. The Flop comes , and I lead out, and only Fred calls. There’s probably around $50-60 in the pot now. The turn is the , (I add a flush draw to my equity), so I lead out again and Fred calls. There’s probably $100 in the pot now. The river is the , and I lead out again for $30, and Fred raises me another $50. Kinda atypical, as Fred tends to just shove pre with any hand. It looks like he’s wanting a call. Did he have AK, A9, K9? I'm just having a hard time putting Fred on two pair, but Fred’s been on fire, and sucking out all night long.


Here’s where it gets weird (and this all happens pretty quickly). As I’m contemplating calling the extra $50, Fred (totally in character) says he’ll show me one card. I point to a card, which he flips up . Now, as I’m pretty quickly realizing I’m ahead (while looking off into space, thinking for a moment), I realize there’s a commotion on the table. One of the bigger personalities at the table (who’s currently dealing) starts to push the pot to Fred, assuming my few seconds of pause are the “Ace” being good, and Fred has won the pot. I clearly have cards still in my hand (and have not in any way indicated a fold). As the pot is getting dragged his way, Fred quickly tables his hand , which quickly gets scooped up and along with the board, and semi-washed by the dealer. I say “whoa, whoa…” and say “I call” and table my hand. I obv have the winning hand, and the dealer (who is normally pretty observant) shoves the pot my way. Fred protests, saying he can’t see the board anymore to see if I had two pair. The dealer, and a couple other players confirm there was an and on the board, giving me 2pr. But Fred is frustrated (and understandably so). Despite having the losing hand, he should get to see the hand. Remember, Fred is high, and erratic, and his claims range from him winning the hand, to his being allowed to take back his $50 raise, etc… You can tell he’s frustrated, but overall he’s pretty calm, he’s not standing up ready to fight or anything like that. But we continued to hear about the hand several times over the last hour of play… It should be noted, that Fred (who has been the biggest etiquette violator) has been the one to brush off jabs (at his breaches) by claiming “it’s just a bar game”.


I fault the dealer for rushing to scoop the board and move onto the next hand (I think frustration with Fred played into this somewhat). I think it’s pretty clear I’ve won the pot, but am I missing something? Does Fred’s claims hold any merit? Should he be declared victor? Should the pot just be split? Just wondering people’s thoughts on this hand.


And yes, feel free to troll all about bar-games, alcohol/drugs, what did I expect, etc… Yes, this was a weird hand, but overall the game was fun (despite the lack of etiquette in certain areas). I didn’t come in with high expectations, so I wasn’t disappointed. As for the story of this hand, feel free to like it, ignore it, dislike it, make rude comments, etc... It's just a retelling of one hand. I am interested in hearing people's sincere thoughts, and to hear if you've witnessed anything like this, and how it was handled.

 

[Anthony Martino]

What a goofy spot.


The rules that I can see being applicable from RRoP are:

***********************************************


DECISION-MAKING


1. Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict

interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling.



THE SHOWDOWN


1. To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not.

2. Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared.

************************************

I think you win the whole pot. Let's try and break it down:

1. You didn't make any errors, so you shouldn't be penalized

2. Your opponent made somewhat of an error, because he relied completely on the dealers actions and failed to notice you had not indicated a fold. His use of substances is no defense

3. The dealer clearly made an error





As such, we know Villians cards, we know Heros cards, we have multiple parties at the table confirming what the board cards were. Thus I believe we must rely upon making a decision in the spirit of fairness, in the best interest of the game you should be awarded the whole pot.

 

[Trihonda]

As such, we know Villians cards, we know Heros cards,

We could have raised...

 

[derekdd23]

You win, it is the dealers job to pay attention. I take issue with dealers that make big mistakes like this since it has happened to me before and cost me large sums of money and equity.

Example:

3 way pot on the river, I check raise 2 opponents. The dealer says I called only the other players table their hands. It was obvious the guy with the nut full house would re-raise my quads and possible the nut flush draw still calls. No further action can happen other than a call at this point according to the floor. Now no re-raise happens and the flush folds. Dealers must control the game properly, especially when money comes out of my buyin for them.

 

[DrStrange]

Well this is tough. Sounds like a self dealt game, so the dealer isn't the authority he normally would be. In a casino/underground game setting, getting the pot pushed to you is when you muck your hand. One good thing is we know villain's hand - if he had just mucked rather than shown it would be even worse. I could absolutely see ruling Hero has no recourse if the pot is pushed, villain's cards are mucked and the board mixed in the muck.

Villain never gets the pot, the question is should he get anything back at all. Villain really is an injured party. Hero didn't snap call, there must have been some chance he folds. But in the end, villain's injuries are partially self-inflicted and Hero played no roll in the outcome. So I award Hero the whole pot.

Hero needs to decide if there is a need to help keep the peace. If so, hero might toss villain a bone. If not, shrug it off. This is not mandatory. If anything it is against the "letter of the law" but it might be good for the game if Hero plays with this crowd frequently.

DrStrange

 

[Anthony Martino]

Yes you could have raised but that is irrelevant once you flip your cards over and say call to try and stop the pot being dragged by sir tweeks-a-lot

 

[BGinGA]

Fred quickly tables his hand , which quickly gets scooped up and along with the board, and semi-washed by the dealer. I say “whoa, whoa…” and say “I call” and table my hand.

Correct action is "I say 'whoa, whoa, I RAISE ALL-IN" and wait for the dealer to instruct you to show your cards.

You're getting the whole pot, or should. It could have been larger.

 

[gopherblue]

Yawn. Sure it wasn't a Budweiser/weed mix? Or Budweiser/Blue Moon mix?

 

[Kyle]

Isn't playing poker for cash at a bar illegal? I assume this is underground and or somehow hush hush.

 

[Trihonda]

Well this is tough. Sounds like a self dealt game, so the dealer isn't the authority he normally would be. In a casino/underground game setting, getting the pot pushed to you is when you muck your hand. One good thing is we know villain's hand - if he had just mucked rather than shown it would be even worse. I could absolutely see ruling Hero has no recourse if the pot is pushed, villain's cards are mucked and the board mixed in the muck.

Villain never gets the pot, the question is should he get anything back at all. Villain really is an injured party. Hero didn't snap call, there must have been some chance he folds. But in the end, villain's injuries are partially self-inflicted and Hero played no roll in the outcome. So I award Hero the whole pot.

Hero needs to decide if there is a need to help keep the peace. If so, hero might toss villain a bone. If not, shrug it off. This is not mandatory. If anything it is against the "letter of the law" but it might be good for the game if Hero plays with this crowd frequently.

DrStrange

Fred is an interesting story.. He has played my game a couple times in the past, but has since been taken off the invite list for not being a good fit (shocking, right). I made an attempt at some well timed, appropriate life-coaching with Fred a while back. However, he's definitely taken a turn for the worse of late (with his health and hygiene). But last night, he was on a crazy bender. He apparently arrived at the bar game, after a bigger (for him) win from a local casino. He's in good spirits, and the many players who he owed money to for months, are finally getting paid back. He's buying drinks for other players, and he's on a crazy roller coaster of degeneracy (with his all-ins, and scooping pots). He' also losing his stack just as often, to other players whom he has history with. It really never crossed my mind to ship him back some of the pot (as it would just end of in someone else's stack within an orbit).

I would absolutely be frustrated in his position, but he really did it to himself with the showing cards thing.

In one other instance, he shoves pre-flop in EP, and gets one caller (for less) and there's two more people who are contemplating a call. Fred discloses his hand, and eventually tables it face up (still with two people left to decide to call the all-in). In the discussion that ensued afterwards, I opined that by Fred tabling his hand, it could theoretically be declared dead, and that he absolutely affected the action (with two people left to act). What I got from Fred, was that it's a "bar game". I think the table conceded that it was a breach of etiquette, but chocked it up to Fred just being a little "off" at the moment. I wasn't involved in that hand, so there really wasn't any sort of protest from me.

 

[Trihonda]

Yawn. Sure it wasn't a Budweiser/weed mix? Or Budweiser/Blue Moon mix?

Dunno... weed for sure (we could all smell it on him), but assuming heroin, as he's gone from having one missing tooth a year back, to now having one tooth... They is all fallin out.

Isn't playing poker for cash at a bar illegal? I assume this is underground and or somehow hush hush.

I have it on good authority from the local town's po-po, who know about the game, but could care less.

It derived from a convo with one of the senior coppers there, when I was trying to recruit him for my home game, lol Always good to have a few cops at your home game.

 

[gopherblue]

Is "Fred" code for "Erik"? As in, "I have this friend, let's call him 'Fred'..."

 

[Trihonda]

Is "Fred" code for "Erik"? As in, "I have this friend, let's call him 'Fred'..."

Well, it's been a while since I've used heroin (or weed). I feel if all my teeth fell out, my wo-workers might get suspicious and call the cops on me.

 

[BGinGA]

Teeth falling with manic behavior sounds more like meth than heroin.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Teeth falling with manic behavior sounds more like meth than heroin.

As a resident of Florida I can confirm this, I have been to WalMart

 

[bergs]

In bar game setting, I would've settled the dispute by flipping stacks playing slapjack.

Now, if the weed/heroin mix is more than 51% weed, he's going to be like super slow and duuuuuude relaxed so you'll able to slapjack faster and take stacks.

But, if he's on more than 51% heroin, he's going to be slapping at anything that moves and you'll probably be involved in a row that includes fisticuffs. Bar poker is probably illegal so it's going to involve a visit from law enforcement and then things get messy from there.

However - what if your read is wrong, and toothless villain is actually 51% cocaine with weed and heroin taking up lesser percentages? I would anticipate that villain will actually out slap you and take your stacks, which is suboptimal.

We need more information in order to make the correct play.

I would start by doing these things before the pot is awarded. You'll need to move quickly.

1) Locate a competent health care professional. This is a bar so look for a really disgruntled woman - good chance it's a nurse or a schoolteacher, so 50/50 odds.

2) Have her very quickly administer a toxicology test on villain, with a predilection towards determining the composition and associated weighted percentages of the drugs villain (allegedly) imbibed.

3) Whilst the toxicology results are being interpreted, you'll need to locate an attorney. Look for the man at the bar who is well dressed but quite intoxicated and seemingly disheveled - good chance it's an attorney or a school administrator, so 50/50 odds.

4) Immediately have the attorney determine what your legal exposure is in the event that the toxicology report comes back with a mostly heroin/some weed mix, as you'll likely end up in the aforementioned fisticuffs, resulting in a visit from law enforcement, and vis a vis a defacto determination as to whether poker is deemed legal in your particular community. Forewarned is forearmed, unless you're JButler, in which case you are simply foreheaded.

I hope all of that helps. I think it's important to use live reads to our advantage at the table, but also equally as important to gather as much empirical information as possible so as to ensure that we make the right decisions.

 

[gopherblue]

Teeth falling with manic behavior sounds more like meth than heroin.

I find myself in the odd position of agreeing with Bagina.

 

[BGinGA]

Always glad to hear, blewgopher.

 

[Trihonda]

• heroin – also called H or smack. People who use heroin tend to crave sweet foods, which can increase the risk of tooth decay if dental hygiene is neglected. Heroin can also cause dry mouth and tooth grinding

• methamphetamine – also called speed, ice or meth. This drug causes severe tooth decay in a very short time. Dental professionals have coined the term ‘meth mouth’ to describe the extensive damage typically caused by this drug. Methamphetamine is highly acidic and attacks tooth enamel. Other side effects include dry mouth, bruxism and jaw clenching.

Wouldn't rule out Meth use, but Heroine is fairly prevalent in the area, and there are other signs that would steer me to thinking Heroin (both H and M can lead to tooth loss), but I honestly don't really care to assess Fred's issues too deeply.

Just a weird hand.

 

[courage]

It's absolutely your pot for the reasons mentioned early in the thread. In that situation it's your option to smooth it over with Fred by offering, say, his $50 raise back, but I think that's also bad for the game if it encourages Fred to think he was somehow wronged. If he won't let it go, I'm probably going with, "I had two pair, what am I supposed to do?" and laugh it off. If he keeps it up I'm gonna ask what he thinks is fair, does he want some $ back? Make him say it. He prolly won't be willing to beg, but you offered. If he he says yes, $50 is my limit and you've now earned the right to needle him lol.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Yadda yadda yadda bar game, yadda yadda yadda etiquette, yadda yadda following the rules. There, I got it out of my system.

Your pot, all the way. Be happy the dealer remembered the board, or all could have been lost. When the rules become all loosey-goosey you gotta become a ninja and stop the sweep/push a bit quicker, which is tough in a bar game, because alcohol probablly is also involved in slowing your own reaction times. Had you been quicker, you could have raised, and H (or meth) boy is probablly paying you off, because stupid likes to pay off.

Since being a ninja and drinking are counter-intuitive, I stay out of bar games. However, I miss out on living some of the great stories that start with "Interesting Situation from Bar Game last Night".

 

[bergs]

Yadda yadda yadda bar game, yadda yadda yadda etiquette, yadda yadda following the rules. There, I got it out of my system.

Your pot, all the way. Be happy the dealer remembered the board, or all could have been lost. When the rules become all loosey-goosey you gotta become a ninja and stop the sweep/push a bit quicker, which is tough in a bar game, because alcohol probablly is also involved in slowing your own reaction times. Had you been quicker, you could have raised, and H (or meth) boy is probablly paying you off, because stupid likes to pay off.

Since being a ninja and drinking are counter-intuitive, I stay out of bar games. However, I miss out on living some of the great stories that start with "Interesting Situation from Bar Game last Night".

Ahh, Zombie-San. You also follow the path of Ninjutsu?

 

[Poker Zombie]

Ahh, Zombie-San. You also follow the path of Ninjutsu?

Only when Honor demands it.