KK on the button (part 3) (1 Viewer)

[moojersey]

Yes this is a totally different hand. Same session from yesterday at MD Live! Casino - Hanover, MD

Some of you may envy the fact that I always seem to be getting dealt KK's on the button.
Truth be told this has become my least favorite spot in all of poker.

2nd half of session after my dinner break. I'm feeling full, refreshed, and motivated to play after a nice dinner and a walk around the mall with a friend. Plan is to play another session until I break even for the day. If the deck is hitting me or I can run over the table to make this a winning day, that's even better.

Significant Players and Action:

Table seems to be playing pretty straight forward except for one guy who is driving most of the action. He seems to be loaded with cash and fearless. Showing big bluffs down (after winning) and using his erratic image to get it in good with premium and made hands. He is not in this hand, but I am hoping to get into a big hand with him soon.

Table is pretty ethnic and I am admittedly feeling very out of place. I do think about a table change, as I seem to be not welcome, but this game seems very good. There is a lot of looser action and I eventually decide this is where I can make a profit. Of the 9 players I am the lone white guy. I feel like every bet I make is being measured and scrutinized, maybe even taken as offensive. It is a weird dynamic, but the mood eventually lightens up after a couple hours and some table talk.

Players are primarily mid 30's to 50's African American players. A very friendly Indian guy is to my right. I will eventually feel bad when I stack him with top 2 over his top top later on. I hold over on him for most of the session and I think he thought I was picking on him, but truth be told I always had it.

4 limpers to the HJ

HJ ($250) Well dressed, wearing sun glasses at the table, sometimes takes them off during hand to read the cards. Raises to $12

Pot = 4 limpers $8 + HJ $12 = 20 + SB / BB $3 = 23 total

Hero ($175) looks at

Exactly the same spot as part 2 of the KK saga. Pretty eery if nothing else, a bit remarkable. Although this time the King's are different colors. Maybe that will change things? I get 2 red KK's later on the button as well. Yes 3 times this session.

How much do we make it to go?

 

[DrStrange]

Same song, second verse.

When Hero catches up to the $12 bet from CO, there will be $35 in the pot. I'd make it $23 more or $35 all day (a 2/3 pot raise).

Hero would have $140 left in his stack after the reraise. Depending on how many callers Hero gets, he will have just over a pot sized bet left. With an SPR just over one, Hero is pot committed to a shove even if the flop has an ace. Hero is also committed to call a preflop 4-bet too even though there is a solid chance that would be from a guy holding pocket aces.

 

[moojersey]

Same song, second verse.

When Hero catches up to the $12 bet from CO, there will be $35 in the pot. I'd make it $23 more or $35 all day (a 2/3 pot raise).

Hero would have $140 left in his stack after the reraise. Depending on how many callers Hero gets, he will have just over a pot sized bet left. With an SPR just over one, Hero is pot committed to a shove even if the flop has an ace. Hero is also committed to call a preflop 4-bet too even though there is a solid chance that would be from a guy holding pocket aces.

Very true. Pre-flop action will play out very similar in both hands. It is not a new tune at all. The post flop play will also go very similar in both hands, but with very different and shocking outcomes. These 2 hands will both be rather short and sweet.

 

[moojersey]

Ok I'm going to move this hand along. I'll post more interesting hands in the future. I know these aren't too tricky.

Hero decides to make it $45 to go. Leaving $130 behind.

This time only one customer.

BB calls $45. The rest fold.

BB is a pacific islander. He is new to the table in the last 15 minutes blitzing a buy in quickly. I've seen him call huge river bets from the tricky action player described in OP, but he was never able to catch him in a bluff. He always paid off a strong made hand. He might be tilted. He re-loaded with pretty black and purple chips. He started the hand with $250'ish and covers hero.

Pot = $113 - $5 rake = $108

Flop comes:



Villain checks.

I assume we are always betting.

How much?

 

[Jimulacrum]

Since we're committed to shove on the flop with basically any raise size, I like a bigger raise than DrStrange is suggesting. That way we're getting more preflop value from a hand that rates to be best the vast majority of the time (but may not be best when we shove the flop and get action). Let's say $45.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Nice raise size! I posted my reply just as you were posting the flop.

Shove here. There are really no other options. If he has us beat, those are the breaks.

 

[DrStrange]

Shove seems best here too.

 

[moojersey]

In hindsight shove is probably best with the SPR.

But once again I feel not much will call a shove that isn't ahead of me of course.

Hero decides to bet very small $25 to try to get value from anything.

Hoping villain has made a pair or a flush draw.

Reason being that this table after dinner was much looser, and a much different dynamic of players.

Pre-dinner table I probably should have asked for a table change as there were too many competent players.

Plus it is very obvious to me that this table doesn't understand much about pot odds and odds to make a hand based on their table talk.

They would not call bets (with drawing hands) of $20 with a $150 pot in the middle, but they would call 3 streets of $20 bets with an initial $20 pot with any pair.


So Hero bets $25 into $108

Villain tanks. Cuts out 3 piles of reds, $75. Looks at it then re-stacks it and tanks awhile longer. He does eventually cut out the $75 again and push it forward.

So Hero gets check raised on the flop. I understand I probably put myself in a bad spot. My own doing. Again it is gameplay disaster to fold I think...

What would you do?

 

[stocky]

Shove

 

[DrStrange]

Yep, same song same verse. jam all in.

Hero should take note here. These hands could easily become part of a nasty leak. Make sure there is a solid plan in mind when making small bets relative to the pot and then review them afterwards. I am not saying it is always wrong to make these types of bets in the middle of the hand but if it is happening very often then there likely is a leak.

 

[Anthony Martino]

get your money in, then, win or lose go home because you're allowing previous results with KK to potentially cloud good decisions.

 

[Jimulacrum]

You still have to get your money in. This check-raise is not enough to figure he has you beat.

More importantly, once the pot is this big—only a little less than your remaining stack—winning it takes precedence over getting post-flop value or making sure you beat your opponent when called. You can't build up giant pots preflop and then scare yourself out of winning them. Also, competent opponents will tend to call you pretty wide here because of the size of the pot, so don't overestimate the kind of strength they require to call you.

If stacks were deeper, we'd be having a different conversation, but they're not.

 

[moojersey]

Conclusion:

This hand happens after my dinner break and having Kings cracked for almost $200 earlier in the day.
That was weighing on me because I can't believe here I am again with a tough decision.
I was feeling good up until this happens. I am very frustrated and take a minute or so to figure out what I want to do.

I eventually stack up my remaining chips and slide them forward.
Thankfully villain shows immediate frustration and starts tanking himself!!!

I am very relieved!!!

Villain figures out it is only another $55'ish to call and at that point it seems to be a pot odds call.

I think he probably caught a pair on the board and thought it was the best hand, not giving me much credit.

I let him know I have Kings and he smiles and says "Kings are good"

** Hero breathes a sigh of relief **

Board ran out something like this, and he just mucks his hand and laughs as he says "I swore you just had "

2c:

 

[Phantom]

Your small bet on the flop would have smelt like AK, which is what I was thinking he put you on, hence his raise . Good to see the KK hold up for once

 

[phan]

glad it worked out but that $25 is a little TOO weak IMO. if you're betting for value, bet for value. my line would have been something like:

pre:
3bet, $45 straight.

flop:
always betting, $65-$70.
- call/shove to CR here or if flatted, shove turn.

it worked out that he thought your $25 bet to be extremely weak (i'd have likely felt the same to be honest), but i'm definitely betting much larger. if the goal is to get value from anything, why not try to get as much as possible?

happy it worked out either way, gg.

 

[moojersey]

glad it worked out but that $25 is a little TOO weak IMO. if you're betting for value, bet for value. my line would have been something like:

pre:
3bet, $45 straight.

flop:
always betting, $65-$70.
- call/shove to CR here or if flatted, shove turn.

it worked out that he thought your $25 bet to be extremely weak (i'd have likely felt the same to be honest), but i'm definitely betting much larger. if the goal is to get value from anything, why not try to get as much as possible?

happy it worked out either way, gg.

I bet so small because of the way the table was playing.
Seemed to be a lot of more inexperienced players. At least that is how it felt to me.
I think most players at this table were just going to call $25 with any pair. Even naked pair of 8's.
I really didn't feel like anyone was paying attention to pot sizes, implied odds, pot odds to draw, and things like that.
I was taken surprise by this guy, and it turns out he was just raising because he thought I had 'big cards', and would fold to a raise.

 

[phan]

There is a lot of looser action and I eventually decide this is where I can make a profit.

i actually read this and responded accordingly; that's where my get-max-value point came from, though, i stand behind the whole, "you should always bet for max value" idea.

but if you felt the $25 was the tippy-top and they wouldn't call anything more, there you go.

 

[guinness]

Giving someone 5-1 odds on a draw heavy flop is not exploiting their play for calling a small bet, it's exploiting yours by pricing people in. Fancy play to induce weakness is fine, but should be done with better spots than this one IMO.