Must a Winning Hand Show ALL Cards? (2 Viewers)

[UniLover]

I have been hosting friendly mixed cash games 50c/$1. All the players know each other.

Situation:

Rio Bravo, player A preflop bets $5.50; player B raises to $11; player C calls.

Player A then raises to $55, which is very unusal for our game. Player B calls; player C calls.

We see flop, I think 3 7 J, BAM three way all-in. Side pot between players A and C.

No more actions but no one turned over citing last individual card yet to come.

Turn 3, river Q, everyone gets their Rio Bravo card.

Player A shows a 3 for a trip and claims it’s from the Rio Bravo card.

Player B shows pocket Qs for Q Q Q 3 3.

Player C shows pocket Ks for K K 3 3 X.

Player B takes main pot, no one cares about his Rio Bravo card.

Player A wins side pot with a trip over Player C’s two pairs.

Player C asks to see all of Player A’s card. Player A refuses citing he already showed his winning card.

Player C argues all cards should be shown.

How would you rule?

 

[umbkcshah]

All cards must be shown to take a portion of pot at showdown (unless all other players voluntarily muck their hand instead of showing down).

 

[mikem_nyc]

I remind all players to show all cards to win the main/sidepot at my home games. Not saying you have to enforce casino rules (recommended), but in a casino if you show one card and muck the other, the dealer considers it a full muck and will award the pot to the other player(s).

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

All cards shown. Otherwise it could be two of the same cards or some other bullshit that made the otherwise winning hand invalid.

 

[BGinGA]

All cards must be shown to take a portion of pot at showdown (unless all other players voluntarily muck their hand instead of showing down).

^ This. And in tournament play, all hole cards must be shown to win any part of a pot, regardless of if they were used to make the winning hand -- even if the opponent(s) mucked.

 

[UniLover]

I remind all players to show all cards to win the main/sidepot at my home games. Not saying you have to enforce casino rules (recommended), but in a casino if you show one card and muck the other, the dealer considers it a full muck and will award the pot to the other player(s).

Is there a different set of rules for home game?

If there is, should there be?

And in tournament play, all hole cards must be shown to win any part of a pot, regardless of if they were used to make the winning hand -- even if the opponent(s) mucked.

Similar to above, is there a different set of rules for cash game?

If there is, should there be?



Btw, player C says he would not have cared if it weren’t an all-in situation.

We also don’t enforce the must show cards at all-in if requested, i.e. if a person mucks it stays mucked.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

We dont have to show at all-in and muck anytime, but there's no good reason why someone should get a pot with half a hand. What if he was dealt an extra card and is keeping it face down stacked tightly? What if the deck is fouled and he's got two Kh?

 

[BGinGA]

Is there a different set of rules for home game?

If there is, should there be?


Similar to above, is there a different set of rules for cash game?

If there is, should there be?

There are two primary poker rule sets followed by most casinos and many well-organized home games -- Robert's Rules of Poker (RROP) and those published by Tournament Directors Association (TDA). Either can be used by casinos or home games (as-is or amended), or a set of house rules can be written and used.

As to whether there should be different rules for casinos and home games, my response would be 'no'.... although some areas of home games (rotating or playing dealer, for example) are not covered by most rule sets.

As to whether there should be different rules for cash games and tournaments, I would argue that some components of the two variations does mean having some different rules for each makes sense. But the majority of rules apply equally well to both.

 

[UniLover]

We dont have to show at all-in and muck anytime, but there's no good reason why someone should get a pot with half a hand. What if he was dealt an extra card and is keeping it face down stacked tightly? What if the deck is fouled and he's got two Kh?

Valid point. Let’s assume game security is not an issue.

A winning hand is shown, trip vs two pairs.

Do the other hole cards that do not contribute to the winning hand have to be shown, in a friendly, relaxed, casual, home cash mixed-games game without security concerns?

 

[umbkcshah]

A winning hand is shown, trip vs two pairs.

Do the other hole cards that do not contribute to the winning hand have to be shown, in a friendly, relaxed, casual, home cash mixed-games game without security concerns?

In a friendly, relaxed game, I counter with why does the player care if his whole hand is shown? I don't care typically in my very casual quarters game ($2 max raise with friends), but if the request is made, your hand is shown.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Valid point. Let’s assume game security is not an issue.

A winning hand is shown, trip vs two pairs.

Do the other hole cards that do not contribute to the winning hand have to be shown, in a friendly, relaxed, casual, home cash mixed-games game without security concerns?

usually? I won't argue if someone flashes the ace for the nut flush and takes it down, but if for some reason in a big pot where there's multiple all-ins, I think player C is well within his right to see the winning hand. All depends on the game culture of course, I'm not going to tap the tank but if its my game I would request the rest of the hand shown to keep the peace. My take is usually keep it friendly and casual but when a dispute comes up we use the rules to avoid any ambiguity.

Agreed with @umbkcshah , its not a big deal until you don't want to do it, then it's off-putting. If its friendly and relaxed why is someone worried about "information"?

 

[BGinGA]

Valid point. Let’s assume game security is not an issue.

A winning hand is shown, trip vs two pairs.

Do the other hole cards that do not contribute to the winning hand have to be shown, in a friendly, relaxed, casual, home cash mixed-games game without security concerns?

Yes, imo. The fact that the game is friendly and relaxed is likely due in part to enforcing rules that discourage cheating and are also capable of exposing mistakes (like a fouled deck, being mis-dealt three cards or just one, or accidentally mucking a single card).

Just show your damn hand to win a pot, it's simple. The potential downside of not doing so far outweighs any perceived upside of "hiding knowledge" or other silly reasons.

 

[UniLover]

In a friendly, relaxed game, I counter with why does the player care if his whole hand is shown? I don't care typically in my very casual quarters game ($2 max raise with friends), but if the request is made, your hand is shown.

usually? I won't argue if someone flashes the ace for the nut flush and takes it down, but if for some reason in a big pot where there's multiple all-ins, I think player C is well within his right to see the winning hand. All depends on the game culture of course, I'm not going to tap the tank but if its my game I would request the rest of the hand shown to keep the peace. My take is usually keep it friendly and casual but when a disupute comes up we use the rules to avoid any ambiguity.

Agreed with @umbkcshah , its not a big deal until you don't want to do it, then it's off-putting. If its friendly and relaxed why is someone worried about "information"?

A little more background.

Four of us rotate and host games at our homes.

Friends first, poker came later.

Three of the four hosts are involved in this particular hand.

We have all had hands where say four cards on the board are suited and one person shows Ace for Ace high flush takes it down without the other card being shown.

The way I read it is Player C wants information on why Player A goes $55 pre-flop, bluffing? Pocket pairs? Suited connectors?

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

A little more background.

Four of us rotate and host games at our homes.

Friends first, poker came later.

Three of the four hosts are involved in this particular hand.

We have all had hands where say four cards on the board are suited and one person shows Ace for Ace high flush takes it down without the other card being shown.

The way I read it is Player C wants information on why Player A goes $55 pre-flop, bluffing? Pocket pairs? Suited connectors?

Yup, seems like thats what Player C wants, and he is entitled to that information from Player A if A wants the pot. You can change it as a house rule, but I dont think theres anything unfriendly about wanting to see both cards while the other guy scoops a massive pot.

Seems Player A is being less friendly and casual. As hosts you can set the rules, but at my friendly casual games you've got to show all your cards to drag a pot. Maybe it doesnt happen every time, but its less friendly to not show for some competitive reason.

Edit: I'm gonna double down on this. Definitely not attacking Player A, never met him or anyone involved, but:

- Wanting information from the guy that has all my money is not unfriendly.
- Preventing the stacked player from seeing what whooped him IS unfriendly.

 

[BGinGA]

A little more background.

Four of us rotate and host games at our homes.

Friends first, poker came later.

Three of the four hosts are involved in this particular hand.

We have all had hands where say four cards on the board are suited and one person shows Ace for Ace high flush takes it down without the other card being shown.

The way I read it is Player C wants information on why Player A goes $55 pre-flop, bluffing? Pocket pairs? Suited connectors?

Maybe. Or maybe Player C just wants to verify that Player A has a valid hand, which is a requirement to claim the pot.

Wait, are you Player A?

 

[UniLover]

Maybe. Or maybe Player C just wants to verify that Player A has a valid hand, which is a requirement to claim the pot.

Wait, are you Player A?

Nope I was B.

No one cared what my Rio Bravo card was lol.

Yeah my all in was about $220 at the flop, so main pot was about $900 on a 50c/$1 game.

Players A and C’s side pot was around $300.