Need to Tap Into Some Expertise Here (2 Viewers)

[Broski]

Be gentle, I'm fragile. (Not really, but it sounded good)

I've been helping/running a cash game at a friend's place for over a year now, and after coming here, I've learned that we have been doing it all wrong. Now I need to try to fix it without losing the game.

We started with 1 table running .25/.50 with $20 buy-ins. The chip set we had to work with, of course, didn't have fracs, so someone decided we would just call every chip .25 and run with it. I know now, BAD idea. In the beginning though it worked because we only had 6-8 players. The last game we played, we had 18 or 19 guys play on 2 tables and we didn't have enough chips. I was late getting there, and they decided to just short stack everyone, and go with it. Whatever.

Now I need to make some changes but don't want to lose the group we have. Myself and a few others really enjoy playing poker, unfortunately, many just play to play, and because $20 doesn't hurt the pocket, they just play dumb. It's your money, play how you want, but c'mon. I would hate to raise the stakes and lose some of the beginners that are trying to learn. At the same time, how do we get it to be taken a bit more seriously? What would you change to make it better?

Also, I am going down the rabbit hole of getting a "good" set of chips to play with. What would you do as far as chip stacks, and qtys with your suggestion. Thanks for the help in advance.

 

[TheJestyr]

I’ve been there, and we ultimately would run a tournament (so those who were on a fixed budget could leave after they busted, and those who wanted to keep playing after busting could play cash)

The other option is run two different sized games. Maybe .25/.50 at one and $1/$2 at the other?

As for chips, there’s a lot of great options. I’d get a bunch of ceramics from someone like BR. Really great chips for the money. But there tons of options. As for breakdown, I’d do something like this for cash:

300x .25
500x $1
600x $5
400x $25
200x $100

Or something similar depending how big your game plays.

Tournament would be different but that’s totally up to you

 

[RichMahogany]

I played regularly in a .25/.50 game with a $20 max buy in.

It was terrible lol

 

[ekricket]

I’ve been there, and we ultimately would run a tournament (so those who were on a fixed budget could leave after they busted, and those who wanted to keep playing after busting could play cash)

The other option is run two different sized games. Maybe .25/.50 at one and $1/$2 at the other?

Same here. We play tournaments. Let’s those that can only budget $20-40 a week for entertainment play with large amounts of chips. Levels the playing field for those that are rich and those that are not.

Buy a tournament set, and then as people bust out they can play the $0.25 game with the chips you have.

 

[ChipFinderSK]

Play .25/.25 instead so people have 80 BB to start (unless you want to up the buy in). Or even .10/.20 so people can start with 100 BB

I’ve been there, and we ultimately would run a tournament (so those who were on a fixed budget could leave after they busted, and those who wanted to keep playing after busting could play cash)

The other option is run two different sized games. Maybe .25/.50 at one and $1/$2 at the other?

As for chips, there’s a lot of great options. I’d get a bunch of ceramics from someone like BR. Really great chips for the money. But there tons of options. As for breakdown, I’d do something like this for cash:

300x .25
500x $1
600x $5
400x $25
200x $100

Or something similar depending how big your game plays.

Tournament would be different but that’s totally up to you

Did you really suggest the OP buy 2,000 chips, including 300 quarters? Seems like overkill for someone looking to buy their first “good” set and currently playing $20 buy-in poker

 

[TheJestyr]

Play .25/.25 instead so people have 80 BB to start (unless you want to up the buy in). Or even .10/.20 so people can start with 100 BB


Did you really suggest the OP buy 2,000 chips, including 300 quarters? Seems like overkill for someone looking to buy their first “good” set and currently playing $20 buy-in poker

OP stated that they had almost 20 players, and for some of the players, $20 buy-in wasn’t enough to inspire “real” play.

I recommended two tables, one .25/.50 and one $1/$2, and figured having one giant set of chips that could cover anything from two tables of .25/.25 up to two tables of $1/$2. If they get 18 people all playing $1/2, that could easily be a few thousand dollar bank. And that’s only having about 100 chips in front of each player. So yeah, I recommended 2000 chips, especially as the game grows.

 

[Broski]

I’ve been there, and we ultimately would run a tournament (so those who were on a fixed budget could leave after they busted, and those who wanted to keep playing after busting could play cash)

The other option is run two different sized games. Maybe .25/.50 at one and $1/$2 at the other?

As for chips, there’s a lot of great options. I’d get a bunch of ceramics from someone like BR. Really great chips for the money. But there tons of options. As for breakdown, I’d do something like this for cash:

300x .25
500x $1
600x $5
400x $25
200x $100

Or something similar depending how big your game plays.

Tournament would be different but that’s totally up to you

As much as I hate to say it, I don't think my wallet or my marriage could handle me getting a 2k chips set right now. I've thought about the tournament idea, just not sure how well it would go over, but worth a shot.

Play .25/.25 instead so people have 80 BB to start (unless you want to up the buy in). Or even .10/.20 so people can start with 100 BB


Did you really suggest the OP buy 2,000 chips, including 300 quarters? Seems like overkill for someone looking to buy their first “good” set and currently playing $20 buy-in poker

I don't mind either of these ideas personally. I don't think the .25/.25 would change much of the action that's already there. Other than starting with 100BB why go to .10/.20? Not sure what that accomplishes. Could just be my FNG ignorance, so please help me to understand. (Genuinely)

This is why I haven't been able to figure out how to fix it yet. Just glad yall are willing to give suggestions.

 

[EastCoastCali]

Play .25/.25 instead so people have 80 BB to start (unless you want to up the buy in). Or even .10/.20 so people can start with 100 BB


Did you really suggest the OP buy 2,000 chips, including 300 quarters? Seems like overkill for someone looking to buy their first “good” set and currently playing $20 buy-in poker

I was more shocked about the $20,000 value of the 200x $100 chips. My first thought was "whoa, that escalated quickly" lol.

 

[allforcharity]

Parameters: 2 tables, 0.25/0.50 stakes, $20 buy ins and reloads, total bank required ???

It sounds like you might have a limp-heavy game with only $20 buy ins.

Try this (per table):
200x 0.25
200x 1
100x 5
Bank $750 per table (37.5 buy ins) is this enough? If not, add extra rack o $5s to bring total to $1250.

Keep it simple, don't overbuy. If they are stock or custom, evaluate how easy/difficult it will be to add on in future.

 

[exodus]

I totally agree with @TheJestyr that you need to have two separate tables with different stakes. So the beginners will have a place to learn and the more serious players won’t be running over the beginners all the time.

I generally agree with the chip denomination breakout. I would possibly switch 100 25c chips for 100 $5 chips.

As for starting stacks, for 25c/50c give everyone 20 quarters at the start and then the rest in $1 until you have $200-300 ones on the table, then start using $5. As for the $1/$2, give everyone $20 $1s chips until you have $100-120 on the table then start doing rebuys with $5s until you run out.

 

[TheJestyr]

As much as I hate to say it, I don't think my wallet or my marriage could handle me getting a 2k chips set right now. I've thought about the tournament idea, just not sure how well it would go over, but worth a shot.

You can absolutely run two tables with 1000 chips.

200x .25
300x $1
400x $5
80x $25
20x $100

Something like this would work just fine for two tables ranging from .25/.25 up to $1/$2

But my “suggestion” would be get two thousand chips…or maybe my “dream for you” is a better way to put it haha

 

[TheYeti]

I don't mind either of these ideas personally. I don't think the .25/.25 would change much of the action that's already there. Other than starting with 100BB why go to .10/.20? Not sure what that accomplishes. Could just be my FNG ignorance, so please help me to understand. (Genuinely)

100BB is considered about the minimum. Most have buy-ins ranging from 100-200BB. Short-stack poker is no fun.

 

[BPTDirector]

@BGinGA

 

[ChipFinderSK]

Other than starting with 100BB why go to .10/.20? Not sure what that accomplishes.

100BB is considered about the minimum. Most have buy-ins ranging from 100-200BB. Short-stack poker is no fun.

Pretty much this - to get to 100 BB starting stacks. If your players don’t want to buy-in more than $20 initially, .25/.25 gets you close enough.

I’d run .25/.25 and convince your players to buy-in with $25 minimum, though (then bait & switch them to buy-in for $50 so you can play deep stack poker from the get-go).

For set building purposes (both short- and long-term), having a set start with quarters makes the most sense.

 

[BGinGA]

Obv "all chips = 25c" is not advised, and neither is forcing everybody to play short-stack poker (25c/50c with 40bb stacks) for what they (mostly) consider to be meaningless stakes ($20 buy-ins).

But you don't want to potentially alienate the low-end players in your group, and you have no idea how large the desired game stakes of the high-end players might be.

I think the solution is to offer two different cash tables.

First table should remain at 25c/50c blinds but with $20 to $50 buy-ins -- this keeps the stakes at the same level, but increases the allowable buy-in to 100bb (adding poker strategy beyond a simple shovefest approach). This change in itself may totally "fix" your problem.

But if not, offer an alternate 50c/$1 blind game with min $100 to max $200 buy-ins on the second table (100-to-200bb, and definitely not short-stack poker). No need to jump to $1/$2 stakes yet, with nobody really indicating they want to play at that level.

So you need a new cash chip set (with fracs) to cover two tables (20 players) and both 25c/50c and 50c/$1 stakes:

200 x 25c
400 x $1
400 x $5
160 x $20 (or $25)
40 x $100
---------------
1200 chips, total bank of $9,650 to $10,450

That is an average of $480 to $525 for 20 players, when the actual $$ per player at the 25c/50c table will be much lower (leaving more bank available to the 50c/$1 table players).

The set will also easily handle 20 players at 25c/50c stakes and up to $100 buy-ins (200bb stacks), if everybody is happy sticking with the current stakes.

 

[BPTDirector]

Obv "all chips = 25c" is not advised, and neither is forcing everybody to play short-stack poker (25c/50c with 40bb stacks) for what they (mostly) consider to be meaningless stakes ($20 buy-ins).

But you don't want to potentially alienate the low-end players in your group, and you have no idea how large the desired game stakes of the high-end players might be.

I think the solution is to offer two different cash tables.

First table should remain at 25c/50c blinds but with $20 to $50 buy-ins -- this keeps the stakes at the same level, but increases the allowable buy-in to 100bb (adding poker strategy beyond a simple shovefest approach). This change in itself may totally "fix" your problem.

But if not, offer an alternate 50c/$1 blind game with min $100 to max $200 buy-ins on the second table (100-to-200bb, and definitely not short-stack poker). No need to jump to $1/$2 stakes yet, with nobody really indicating they want to play at that level.

So you need a new cash chip set (with fracs) to cover two tables (20 players) and both 25c/50c and 50c/$1 stakes:

200 x 25c
400 x $1
400 x $5
160 x $20 (or $25)
40 x $100
---------------
1200 chips, total bank of $9,650 to $10,450

That is an average of $480 to $525 for 20 players, when the actual $$ per player at the 25c/50c table will be much lower (leaving more bank available to the 50c/$1 table players).

The set will also easily handle 20 players at 25c/50c stakes and up to $100 buy-ins (200bb stacks), if everybody is happy sticking with the current stakes.

Thanks for answering the tag Dave. As always expert advice.

 

[upNdown]

Same here. We play tournaments. Let’s those that can only budget $20-40 a week for entertainment play with large amounts of chips. Levels the playing field for those that are rich and those that are not.

Buy a tournament set, and then as people bust out they can play the $0.25 game with the chips you have.

Yeah I think hosting tournaments is a lot more work than hosting cash, but it sounds like a good solution for this group.

 

[JustinInMN]

We started with 1 table running .25/.50 with $20 buy-ins. The chip set we had to work with, of course, didn't have fracs, so someone decided we would just call every chip .25 and run with it. I know now, BAD idea. In the beginning though it worked because we only had 6-8 players. The last game we played, we had 18 or 19 guys play on 2 tables and we didn't have enough chips. I was late getting there, and they decided to just short stack everyone, and go with it. Whatever.

Fwiw, I don't hate the everything is a quarter method for $20 buy-ins, that's 80 chips per player which seems workable until you run out of chips, obviously.

I cringe to ask, but I am too curious what exactly do you mean "they decided to short stack everyone?". How would that even work and bank correctly at the end?

Also, I am going down the rabbit hole of getting a "good" set of chips to play with. What would you do as far as chip stacks, and qtys with your suggestion. Thanks for the help in advance.

I think you do need to change the stakes and structure. The good news is you have enough players to accommodate two separate games that accommodate both crowds.

I think you can keep a $20 buy-in game and reduce the blinds to 25¢-25¢. I would then make a 25¢-50¢ game with a max buy in of $60 to accommodate the players that want to play deeper.

I would think a 1000 chip set of 200/400/360/40 of 25¢/1/5/20 would cover both games well. You could probably even get away with an 800 chip set by reducing the singles and fives by 100 each.

That said perhaps before you get invested in new chips, I would suggest implementing the structure changes first if possible with your current set and see how that goes over. Could you provide a breakdown of the quantities and colors you have available? Maybe we can come up with a short term answer. I would assume you have a substantial number of chips at your disposal if you were doing everything is a quarter and it took an 18 player game to break the system.

Side note: I am not going to join the chorus of switch to tournament. It's just too different of a game and the point of a tournament is to gradually exclude players until one winner is crowned. Unless players have experience with this, it's a pretty radical change.

100BB is considered about the minimum. Most have buy-ins ranging from 100-200BB. Short-stack poker is no fun.

I would point out 100BB is a mega stack compared to the 40BB structure they have now.

 

[Broski]

Ok. WoW. I come home from going to the casino, like a true degenerate, to find all this. Let me see if I can walk through this 1 by 1.

I cringe to ask, but I am too curious what exactly do you mean "they decided to short stack everyone?". How would that even work and bank correctly at the end?

I remember the starting stacks being something like 70 or 75 chips compared to the 80 that we normally used. I have no idea how they paid it back out at the end of the night. I think it all ended up in one guys stack, so it didn't matter in the end. I know I was not a fan or this at all.

Could you provide a breakdown of the quantities and colors you have available?

I'm not 100% on this but without going over there to look, but I'll give you my best guess from memory. I know there is one 500 set all non denom (i think its a realtree camo set... yes one guy is a true redneck)wht/red/grn/blk/blue 150/150/50/100/50(I do believe) then there is close to the same in a standard cheap dice set. So I'm guessing we have 1000ish or more in hand.

So this question is coming from a complete place of ignorance. Would the larger starting stack really change the theme of betting really dumb stuff multiple streets to try to make hands? Maybe I haven't played enough well organized and ran games for that to click at this point.

 

[Broski]

Yeah I think hosting tournaments is a lot more work than hosting cash, but it sounds like a good solution for this group.

I don't hate the idea of tournament play. Especially if you 1 or no rebuys. That would force the players that just throw money at and 2 cards to rethink the plan if they can't buy back in at any point. May be more work organizing it but could be worth it.

 

[JustinInMN]

wht/red/grn/blk/blue 150/150/50/100/50

Okay so let's say this is the set. I would probably suggest you do black quarters, white singles, red fives, and blue twenties. This would let you build 8 stacks of 12/17 of 25¢/1 with 4/14/1 of 25¢/1/5 left over for a 9th stack to make $20 stacks. (And you could do the same for bigger buy ins just by adding fives.) After that everyone gets fives. This breakdown would work well enough to try either/both of the two stakes I proposed. (Assuming you have about two sets the same as you said.)

May be more work organizing it but could be worth it.

I should have suggested this sooner, but if you haven't already, find @Chris Manzoni 's YouTube channel, he gives great hosting advice on both tournaments and cash games.

Cash game advice

Tournament advice

Hope this helps ,

 

[SteveEH]

There's lots of good advice so far, but I'll chime in from the lazy perspective because I don't want to manage 2 separate banks or tournaments.

How many $20s do each of your players go through each session? Figure this out and set your stakes around the median. For example, if that number is $60, .25/.25 blinds with a $20-$50 buy in would give players a minimum of 3 80 BB bullets each for the night. 3 buy ins for each player is a somewhat accepted standard for one session, but adjust this number based on how much gamble your players have.

There's always going to be people that don't study the game and play "proper poker," but it is up to you to adjust your play against them. The buy in range allows your poker enthusiasts to buy in deep, and the gamblers to keep buying in short. Best of both worlds.

Another thing to consider is what people are open raising for. Players may not think in BBs, they may think "a buck isn't enough so I'm gonna make it $5." This effectively short stacks you if your BB is .25 and you're buying in for 200 BBs. To mitigate this you can do pot limit pre flop and no limit post flop.

Finally, once you've made changes and things are running well, recruit appropriately - set expectations with the stakes when you're vetting potential new players.

 

[Mushmanchuman]

I played regularly in a .25/.50 game with a $20 max buy in.

It was terrible lol

Me too! The only reason I kept coming was that we smoked like, 13 doobies during the sesh. That was +EV for me