Newbies don't care about rules/etiquette. Tips? (1 Viewer)

[Yenaled]

So I've got a nice weekly NLHE micro stakes cash game with friends. Most of them are very new to the game and don't understand and/or care about certain rules or etiquette, such as:

-always assuming BB will check preflop and being annoyed when anyone raises preflop

-pressuring people to always show their cards after folding

-cashing out immediately once they're positive

-cashing out then rebuying later

-acting out of turn

-talking during the hand ("oh no I folded a straight!" for example)

And also these but I'm not sure if they're ok or not:

-giving chips to other players

-not willing to randomize seating


So yeah I'm stuck between keeping it friendly and fun OR enforcing the rules for the sake of fairness and playing properly. What is the best approach to this?

 

[Perthmike]

I have the same problem with my friends, except that we play tourneys rather than cash. Mostly I just give up nowadays, as I just accepted that they will never be serious about the game.

So I just keep it fun now and make a point of calling out the more egregious rule breaking.

Apart from the one time I waited, silently raging and praying for my opponent to fold to my bluff, and promptly yelled in my friends face and told him to shut the fuck up next time he's not in a hand lol.

It makes it impossible to add proper players to the game though. But sometimes a fun game between friends is worth keeping.

 

[brewdawg]

I think you have to have rules so that everyone understands the playing field. Maybe try explaining the issues or sending a house rules in the next email invite. And then have the rules posted.

Or decide it is just a game for fun with friends and except that there are going to be things that do not follow the rules or etiquette of poker. On that note, you could not take the rules seriously, and joke about the rules and etiquette as y'all are playing. Things like, "I'm glad we're not in a mob card game, they would take you out back for giving chips to other players."

 

[Colquhoun]

-always assuming BB will check preflop and being annoyed when anyone raises preflop

This is just what new players do. They'll eventually learn, but you can explain how it's advantageous for a person with good hole cards to increase size of the pot. Many inexperienced players look at hold 'em like a slot machine...get your bets in and see what happens. It can be frustrating, but when they see all the chips in front of the players that raise pre-flop, they'll come around in time.

-pressuring people to always show their cards after folding

If the hand is still active, this is a major no-no and shouldn't be tolerated at all. the integrity of the game is gone if this is allowed to continue.

-cashing out immediately once they're positive

-cashing out then rebuying later

-acting out of turn

Also a rules issue and shouldn't be tolerated. You'll need to discuss a short list of rules so that everyone understands.

-talking during the hand ("oh no I folded a straight!" for example)

This can be a tough one to curb, but each player that does it should be addressed.

-giving chips to other players

Again, a solid rule that should be enforced. Tell them they need to buy from you because you're trying to get MORE chips on the table, not less!

-not willing to randomize seating

For beginners at this stage, I'm not so sure this one is that important.


In short, I don't think you need to be a dictator in enforcing the rules, but asking everyone to follow some simple ones initially wont make it any less fun, but will definitely keep the integrity of the game intact. Also the longer these shenanigans are allowed to continue, the harder the habits will be to break later on.
Good luck!

 

[tabletalker7]

Get you one of these to aid in rule enforcement

 

[TexRex]

Well, if you aren't playing by rules...

When we were kids, we played baseball. What if a guy wasn't out after 3 strikes, when he didn't make it to first before the ball got there, or the ball was caught in the air? It wouldn't be baseball any more, that's what. Now, sometimes a legitimate question arose about whether a guy was out or safe, but the major rules were easy to follow. But if you are going to attempt to play baseball, the rules are there for a reason. It's the same with poker, or any other game.

Explain what the rules are, and explain why they are there. Explain even though stakes may be small, it is for money so breaking rules really may be stealing.

Sometimes newbies really don't know some rules and don't see the significance of them. That's why an explanation helps. Figure out which rules really make a difference. For example, no rabbit hunting is primarily about taking extra time, but it can also affect a guy who was running a bluff (or not).

Brewdog and Colquhoun have some good ideas.

Here's my take on your specific situations; not disagreeing with previous repsonses.

-always assuming BB will check preflop and being annoyed when anyone raises preflop -- Every player has the right to play his cards and chips the way he wants to! No complaining about how another player plays a hand should be tolerated. Perhaps fining players for that would work. Doesn't have to be much of a fine -- no one likes being fined!

-pressuring people to always show their cards after folding -- Show one, show all! But no player has to show his cards and give away information.

-cashing out immediately once they're positive; and
-cashing out then rebuying later -- Cash you, you leave. If you get to be known as a hit-and-run artist, you won't be invited back. You don't cash out or take money off the table until you are ready to go home.

-acting out of turn -- I'd point out you can't change your mind when you act out of turn. But this one, I'd just take advantage of. It's free information. I would explain it to them 1-2 times, but if they continue to do stupid things, let them.

-talking during the hand ("oh no I folded a straight!" for example) -- No talking during the hand. It affects the play of others still in the hand. For example, in hold 'em: I have 2 Js. On the board is K, Q, T, x x. I realize that the chances of someone else having a straight, since they need a J, are cut in half. But if some guy folded a J, he just told me my chances of improving to 3 Js got cut in half. I'd have to consider that based on what other's are doing.

And also these but I'm not sure if they're ok or not:

-giving chips to other players -- Players get chips from the bank only! Now, giving change is different, but you can't buy chips from another player. That's the same as partially cashing out.

-not willing to randomize seating -- Early on with newbies, not necessarily a big deal, but explain why random seating is more fair in the long-run.

 

[LotsOfChips]

LOL - by the title, I thought you were pissed that they weren't tipping!

All of the above suggestions are good, but the best one (IMO) is to compile a list of house rules that address your pet peeves, and both e-mail them to all players and post them near the table. Add to the list when new pet peeves arise. Explain to the players that you are doing this to improve the quality and integrity of the game.

 

[LeLe]

Just have to teach them step by step, these always happen when I teach micro stake poker to friends and family for the 1st time.

They will slowly step up on the rules but just don't be to hard on them for new players

Like hidden their biggest Denomination behind the small denomination chip, string betting or betting checking or folding out of turn are some of the most common things I saw from new players

 

[grebe]

So I've got a nice weekly NLHE micro stakes cash game with friends. Most of them are very new to the game and don't understand and/or care about certain rules or etiquette, such as:

-always assuming BB will check preflop and being annoyed when anyone raises preflop

-Not against the rules....who cares really. Let them be annoyed.

-pressuring people to always show their cards after folding

-Also not against the rules. Tell them to eat a dick, they will eventually shut up.

-cashing out immediately once they're positive

- I would tell them this is not a casino...if they hit and run, they will not be invited back.

-cashing out then rebuying later

-This only happens if you let them. See above.

-acting out of turn

-This is handled in standard rules. Enforce them.

-talking during the hand ("oh no I folded a straight!" for example)

-Also handled in standard rules. Give a warning, next time there should be a punishment. Sit out an orbit, for example.

And also these but I'm not sure if they're ok or not:

-giving chips to other players

-Only happens if you let it.

-not willing to randomize seating

-only happens if you let it.

So yeah I'm stuck between keeping it friendly and fun OR enforcing the rules for the sake of fairness and playing properly. What is the best approach to this?

 

[tabletalker7]

Ok everybody. Repeating the same basic concept (you have to enforce the rules) isn't helping the OP. The OP is asking how to go about enforcing the rules. My suggestion is to cancel a game or two on them. When they ask, let them know that you need a time out from it to figure out how to enforce the rules of the game. Either they come around or they don't. If they come around, good. Enjoy. If they don't, then ask yourself if you want to run a lawless game. Personally, if the rule breaking was so bad in any of my games that I had to ask for help in enforcement, I would shut the game down.

 

[swana]

The key is to explain why the rules exist and how breaking them hurts the integrity of the game...

Hopefully you can get a couple of buddies on your side and you could ask them to speak up too, so it's not just coming from you.

When I started playing we had similar issues and once a majority of us wanted to play "right" we started implementing small fines (1SB) for playing out of turn. It was more of a way to bring attention to issues than punish guys.

Good luck on getting your game cleaned up.

 

[Machine]

In order of wanting:
-talking during the hand ("oh no I folded a straight!" for example)
This affects the game and they are basically giving out information that directly affects other players during the hand.
"Tom, please stop talking about the hand, you are potentially affecting the game and the money involved in the hand"

-giving chips to other players
Table stakes, equivalent to going south, should not be allowed
This would have been #1, but its likely not as often as talking during the hand
Hurts people that are stuck because they can't win the money back, explain it is fine to give out cash but not chips.
Its also consider cheating because as you do this, you've taken chips from others but when you should have 100 more chips they are not there when others didn't do that to you.
"Bill, we are playing table stakes, its fine if you want to give Tom money, but not chips; this can affect outcomes and is considered cheating, as well as rude."

-cashing out then rebuying later
This is fine provided that they buy in for the same amount or more as they cashed out with, within a certain window, for me its 4 hours.
"Jimmy, you want to buy back in? Oh okay, how much did you cash out for again?"
"Well I don't want to buy in for that much" - "We can't do that, its part of the rules, within X hours you have to buy back in for what you cashed out for, you wouldn't want to be seen going south?"

-pressuring people to always show their cards after folding
Pipe in and say No.

Tell them to eat a dick, they will eventually shut up.

Love this!


Come on guys:
-acting out of turn
"Tim, that's the Xth time you've folded out of turn, please wait for Jimmy to act"

Who Cares:
-cashing out immediately once they're positive
"The old hit and run artist eh? hahah, its fine, would you like a coke for the road?"
You can also explain its fine to just sit out and take a break, they don't have to 'leave' the table unless there are other players waiting. You can also take them aside and explain its considered very rude to do this, and it would be better if they would wait and just fold say 8 hands to quietly leave.

-always assuming BB will check preflop and being annoyed when anyone raises preflop
"Yeah I can't believe he raised out of the big blind with those rags, I love it when they give the money away!, Where's mine?!"

depends on more info:
-not willing to randomize seating

Throughout the night I would touch on the first two for about two or three weeks, just talk about it and bring it up every few hours.

 

[Rhodeman77]

I would try to make a point about the rules outside of the game to start. Send a group email/text with the major issues and why they are a problem. Then when the game happens and they start up mention it again.

A good way to help drive the importance of the rules is that if they ever play in a casino poker room their behavior would never be tolerated. So playing at home correctly will prepare them for casino play.

 

[Kain8]

Threaten your players that you'll play limit next time if they don't start obeying the rules. If that doesn't scare them, then nothing will.

 

[Rieguy]

So yeah I'm stuck between keeping it friendly and fun OR enforcing the rules for the sake of fairness and playing properly.

This isn't actually an "either/or" scenario. By being firm and unwavering about rule enforcement you are really helping to improve the quality and fun of the game long-term for everyone, even if that isn't apparent to your players in the short-term. Be sure to take the time to explain to them why certain rules and sticking to them is important, that way the exchange is less adversarial and more about the general health of the game. Give a simple/quick reminder of the main ones before the game starts.

While I'm friendly about these things, I have zero tolerance for instances like talking about your hand when not in the hand, consistently playing out of turn, string-betting, etc. Obviously mistakes can happen but it is usually apparent if that is what happened. Without rules or enforcement of them, that is where real issues can come into play. My main group started where you guys are at but quickly fell into the routine of proper play/etiquette. That now seems like ages ago, to the point that all I get annoyed with now are these ADHD bastards not posting their blinds before the hand starts.

And also these but I'm not sure if they're ok or not:

-giving chips to other players

-not willing to randomize seating

I think these are up to you or whoever is hosting, assuming we are talking cash games (I would be opposed to both for tournament play). Maybe once the other major stuff becomes normalized then it would be easier to float the idea of random seating and how it would change things up and make the game more fun/interesting.

As to giving chips to other players, I think that depends on the amounts or degree to which it is happening. In my micro-stakes game people regularly are joking around and will sometimes throw a quarter or a couple blind's worth to other people for dumb reasons that doesn't affect play at all and livens things up. However, if you are talking about giving substantial amounts then I can see that being an issue and would just ask they buy chips from whoever is handling the bank.

 

[MrCatPants]

I would try to make a point about the rules outside of the game to start. Send a group email/text with the major issues and why they are a problem. Then when the game happens and they start up mention it again.

A good way to help drive the importance of the rules is that if they ever play in a casino poker room their behavior would never be tolerated. So playing at home correctly will prepare them for casino play.

This is good advice. Also, I'd let them know that the rules are for a reason - eventually someone is going to get angry for these rules getting broken. E.g. someone running a bluff while another players says something like "he probably doesn't have the flush - I folded two spades!". And why sequence of action is important, etc. The rules are not just you being difficult - they are to prevent bad situations from happening if they are broken that could get people pretty angry.

 

[Josh Kifer]

Easiest way to get new guys to learn the rules is to enforce them, educate, and stay firm.

I'll do a pregame educational hour if they show up early, and I'll pause action to explain why rules occur during game. If they have an issue, we clear it up. But my call is law at the table.

If this was Monopoly, rule mistakes arnt a huge deal, it's the rules. Treat it as such.

 

[JustinInMN]

Here is how I treat all of these when hosting.

-always assuming BB will check preflop and being annoyed when anyone raises preflop

So this one is really in the hands of the dealer. If you see the dealer about to proceed without this you should simply call "time" to protect the Big Blind's ability to act.

-pressuring people to always show their cards after folding

This one I think depends on the culture of the game, but if you sense a player is being bullied into it, remind players that information has a price they were not willing to pay or words to that effect.

-cashing out immediately once they're positive

-cashing out then rebuying later

As others have said, as host you are 100% in control of these two things and shouldn't allow either. Quiet conversation after the fact, but players should treat home games as a time commitment different than a casino that keeps lists.

-acting out of turn

Again as with my advice on the big blind, just call "time" and ask where the action is supposed to be. It's a declaration that isn't personal, but players acting out of turn will get the message.

-talking during the hand ("oh no I folded a straight!" for example)

I usually just use the prompt "the hand is still live" as a reminder. This is a statement of fact that isn't personal (at least yet), but does signal everyone should consider what they are saying. If this doesn't work, then be descriptive that none of this is appropriate when the hand is live.

-giving chips to other players

This is another form of the early cash out. A little tougher to control and honestly can be tolerated in small amounts to settle side wagers, food chip ins, etc...

-not willing to randomize seating

For cash games, I typically do FCFS for seating. For tournaments random draw should be the norm, though some players can be accommodated with middle seats if needed.

 

[ratbastard]

As host, you need to be the enforcer. Table etiquette and rules aren't very hard to follow, and will become rote after a few games. Hemming and hawing about raises is one thing; forcing players to reveal what they folded or table talk during hands which reveals information ('I folded a straight') is harmful to the game.

If you're not willing to get everyone up to speed on your expectations all at once, maybe you can slowly introduce rules so that you don't seem like a stickler and avoid putting players off.

 

[Random Phish]

Enforce the rules but do it in a friendly, constructive, light hearted manner and explain why the rule is there. You may slow down the game in the short term but it will be much better and smoother in the long run. Also you may become known as a rules nit, but my advice is to own it and again joke about it.

There was a guy (a long time ago) in our neighborhood game that was a real a-hole about rules, real militant, and everyone hated his approach. I take a more lighthearted approach and now everyone knows the rules ~enough~ where we have a good game and none of the stuff you listed.

For the guy that hit and runs, he wouldn’t be invited back. The only time someone gets a pass on leaving early is if they announce when they arrive they need to leave at a certain time.

 

[Machine]

I take a more lighthearted approach and now everyone knows the rules ~enough~ where we have a good game and none of the stuff you listed.

YOU BETTER GET IN LINE, SOLDIER!! You need to enforce all of the rules and right soon, let me give you a what for!

 

[tabletalker7]

There was a guy (a long time ago) in our neighborhood game that was a real a-hole about rules, real militant,

 

[Superglide08]

We have similar issues at our game. It’s typically with newbies. The guys who have played in a poker room somewhere have the ettiquette where as a random who’s playing because his buddies are. I know when I host I try to keep it legit but light. People just inadvertantly speak out loud a FML type thing and you just shoot them a dagger. If it happens again you just call them out. If you’re trying to keep the game light and friendly while serious there are some good tips. Strike while the irons hot when there is something that shouldn’t happen. I’ve tried fines. They work but you piss people off. You have to weigh your pros and cons ultimately to fit your game. If you get people butt hurt over what they perceive is you making too much of something you could lose a player or two. Best of luck to you