PAHWM: $1/$3 w/ TT in a 10 handed, $15 button straddle pot (2 Viewers)

[Legend5555]

Setup:

Game is playing 10 handed. We are playing with a $10 rock (mandatory on the button, optional everywhere else). Have has been playing a bit bigger than normal as there are normal straddles and people using rocks in places other than the button.

SB is a younger guy. Not very good. Has gotten all in for 100+BB with TPTK on 958 in a limped pot. Generally raises pretty tight, but his sizing are always terrible. Mostly uses min raises as his preferred size any time he raises. Preflop he will use some different sizes, but only in non straddled pots. Is capable of making bluffs, but they generally are sizings too small and don't make much sense hand reading-wise.

Button is a 2/5 regular that started off splashy, but has calmed down a bit. Has shown that he doesn't like folding post flop. He has the rock.

CO is a 22 year old that seems pretty savvy. A bit uncreative, but actually capable of 3 betting pre and reading hand ranges and board textures.

HJ is me. I'm playing my typical TAG style for this game. SB fears me and respects me. Button and I have no history. CO and I get involved in a tricky spot earlierv where we both were trying to take advantage of another guy that was very short. I isolate 4 bet the short stack's limp jam, and the CO back 5 bet after he called my initial raise with AA. I had a lower pair and folded. So is he keanly aware of table dynamics.

Onto the hand...

Button has the rock and adds $5 to it to make it a $15 straddle.

SB ($500) min raises to 30.
Folds to me in the HJ ($700) with

CO ($800) and Button ($1000) still to act behind.

HERO?

 

[dinosaur]

What’s a rock do?

O. Is it a mandatory straddle? - context clues.

 

[Legend5555]

What’s a rock do?

O. Is it a mandatory straddle? - context clues.

It's a house straddle. It's thrown in the first pot of the night. Whoever wins a pot with the rock in it gets it and then can use it to straddle.

 

[trever]

3bet to 75 in the futile hope that you can get heads up with position vs the bad player

 

[grebe]

Raise to 90 or 100.

We could also go low variance and set mine here. We are going to have to fold if somebody behind us raises.

I like option A due to good players behind us. Make it a smooth 100, since SB seems easy to play against. If we take it down pre, so much the better.

 

[Legend5555]

Part 2

Button has the rock and adds $5 to it to make it a $15 straddle.

SB ($500) min raises to 30.
Folds to me in the HJ ($700) with

CO ($800) and Button ($1000) still to act behind.

HERO is not playing his normally more aggressive A game and flats.

CO and Button fold.

Pot: $75
Eff stack: $470

Flop:

SB checks.

HERO?

 

[lib]

HERO bets $55.

Is this a trick question?

 

[umbkcshah]

Plenty of draws available. Check or small bet, leaning towards small bet 30ish just to keep lead, don't expect OPP to fold much. If raised, who knows.

 

[grebe]

A guy I play with likes this weird $5 lead here "to see where everyone is at". Not going to lie, it's effective AF.

I like a small bet here with range. $25

 

[Legend5555]

HERO bets $55.

Is this a trick question?

Just a comment on your question. Don't assume everyone knows what line to take. Or that there is even agreement in a line. Some people are here to learn.

 

[trever]

Really surprised that the button didn't come along preflop. Bet $35

 

[Ben8257]

Somewhere in the 1/2 pot range here... doubtful they fold and suprised by the check after the PF raise... let's see where we are with the $35ish bet! Besides... we got outs! Lol

 

[Legend5555]

Part 3
Leaving work soon. Let's get this out there. Most people seem in agreement. I do decide to go small as I'm just trying to protect and get a little bit of value against stuff like AK and AQ as I don't think he checks over pairs here almost ever.

Button has the rock and adds $5 to it to make it a $15 straddle.

SB ($500) min raises to 30.
Folds to me in the HJ ($700) with

CO ($800) and Button ($1000) still to act behind.

HERO is not playing his normally more aggressive A game and flats.

CO and Button fold.

Pot: $75
Eff stack: $470

Flop:

SB checks.
HERO bets $25.
SB calls.

Pot: $125
Eff stack: $445

Turn:

SB checks.

HERO bet or check? If bet, sizing and why?

 

[JustinInMN]

Button has the rock and adds $5 to it to make it a $15 straddle.

SB ($500) min raises to 30.
Folds to me in the HJ ($700) with

CO ($800) and Button ($1000) still to act behind.

HERO?

I think a 3 bet to 60-75 and try and get this heads up SB could be trying a squeeze to take advantage of the rock. A lot of players use extra aggression against a straddle and if I suspect Sb is doing this, I am really going to pressure the button to continue.

HERO is not playing his normally more aggressive A game and flats.

CO and Button fold.

Pot: $75
Eff stack: $470

Flop:

SB checks.

HERO?

The defense of flatting is to play small ball. A $15 straddle is going to make play pretty shallow, but TT is not a great had 3 handed. I guess be glad the button passed, that was a best case scenario after flatting. This is you flop for sure. SB declining the c-bet is almost certainly no-jack and no-overpair. He's either checking a monster or he's bluffing. It's really hard for me to give villain credit for T9 as played, so if villain has "anything" it's a set and one where he has to fear a coordinated board. Otherwise villain would really only be continuing with draws. For the latter reason, I think you have to bet at least half-pot here or around $40 or more.

Flop:

SB checks.
HERO bets $25.
SB calls.

Pot: $125
Eff stack: $445

Turn:

SB checks.

HERO bet or check? If bet, sizing and why?

The small flop bet maybe kept SB's draws as weak as two overs in. Board paring changes nothing. Villain is still behind if drawing, and still ahead if they had a flopped set. I am going to suggest another bet here and definitely more than half pot again, planning to check most rivers behind unless we make tens-full.

Hero's hand is good, likely ahead, but vulnerable because draws as weak as two-overs are probably still in.

 

[Lemonzest]

I would bet 45. If he has the J then we are obviously way behind. If he has two broadway cards in his hand that missed the board we can't let him draw out on us for free.

PS. I would have raised to 100 pre flop.

 

[Legend5555]

I'm not going to try and defend my no 3 bet pre here. I should 3 bet. But I wasn't in a great head space after some early goings on in the game.

If I had to defend it, the guys raising range is pretty narrow (though he limps a lot), we are 10 handed, and he's the kind of guy that sees bets in more absolute size terms than relative to the effective big blind terms.

Still with the good and active player behind, I think isolating would have been better. Although, it would have made this hand less interesting.

 

[lib]

Just a comment on your question. Don't assume everyone knows what line to take. Or that there is even agreement in a line. Some people are here to learn.

Sorry, l was just wondering if there was something I was missing. You write that Villain is pretty tight and we have position and (after he checks) initiative. In this spot I wouldn't overanalyse the board. It's a half decent flop for us and I would size our bet around 2/3 pot. If our bet is too small he will most likely hang on with any decent pair or draw and I don't think we get much information with a small bet in this spot.

 

[Legend5555]

Part 4

Button has the rock and adds $5 to it to make it a $15 straddle.

SB ($500) min raises to 30.
Folds to me in the HJ ($700) with

CO ($800) and Button ($1000) still to act behind.

HERO is not playing his normally more aggressive A game and flats.

CO and Button fold.

Pot: $75
Eff stack: $470

Flop:

SB checks.
HERO bets $25.
SB calls.

Pot: $125
Eff stack: $445

Turn:

SB checks.
HERO checks.

In the moment I thought I didn't need much more protection from overs unless it's specifically diamonds, but I figured there is basically only 1-2 combos of diamonds at this point AKdd or AQdd. Whether or not he just check calls with those instead of betting or check raising, I'm not sure. But it's for sure possible with this guy. Plus, so many of these bad players just never think you'll check a decent hand on flop or turn, so they bluff/pay off more on river when you show weakness especially on turn. So I overuse this play a bit.

Pot: $125
Eff stack: $445

River:

SB grabs chips looking like he is going to bet 75-100, but then checks.

HERO?

 

[JustinInMN]

In the moment I thought I didn't need much more protection from overs unless it's specifically diamonds, but I figured there is basically only 1-2 combos of diamonds at this point AKdd or AQdd. Whether or not he just check calls with those instead of betting or check raising, I'm not sure. But it's for sure possible with this guy. Plus, so many of these bad players just never think you'll check a decent hand on flop or turn, so they bluff/pay off more on river when you show weakness especially on turn. So I overuse this play a bit.

Pot: $125
Eff stack: $445

River:

SB grabs chips looking like he is going to bet 75-100, but then checks.

HERO?

The move is unusual and I would often say a sucker would do that to try and prevent you from betting. However, TT is now officially only two pips above a-hi in the hierarchy of hands now. So even with that read, the only thing I think hero gets value from is 99, and maybe a very loose crying call form a missed A-hi. But with a bit of a wild villain, he may just decide to turn those hands into bluffs if hero bets. I really don't like going for thin value against unpredictable opponents.

I think I check the River all day as played (and as I advocated for betting the turn, I would still be looking to check this river back as well if that were the line.) Take the showdown value, at this point you are either going to be shown a full house or nothing. If villain has 99, I guess that sucks to have missed value, but that's too specific for me to want to risk a check raise with a hand that has some showdown value, yet doesn't beat the board by a lot.

I suspect hero will either be shown a slow played full house or a missed draw.

FWIW, I do like your explanation about checking the turn to induce a river bluff. I am also a fan of that play against aggressive villans, but I don't use it as often if my holding is vulnerable and I would be getting calls from draws. That said, I don't mind the thought, it's a pity it didn't work out this time. I do think because the flop sizing was small there is more overcards coming along than just diamonds, though.

 

[Legend5555]

The move is unusual and I would often say a sucker would do that to try and prevent you from betting. However, TT is now officially only two pips above a-hi in the hierarchy of hands now. So even with that read, the only thing I think hero gets value from is 99, and maybe a very loose crying call form a missed A-hi. But with a bit of a wild villain, he may just decide to turn those hands into bluffs if hero bets. I really don't like going for thin value against unpredictable opponents.

I think I check the River all day as played (and as I advocated for betting the turn, I would still be looking to check this river back as well if that were the line.) Take the showdown value, at this point you are either going to be shown a full house or nothing. If villain has 99, I guess that sucks to have missed value, but that's too specific for me to want to risk a check raise with a hand that has some showdown value, yet doesn't beat the board by a lot.

I suspect hero will either be shown a slow played full house or a missed draw.

FWIW, I do like your explanation about checking the turn to induce a river bluff. I am also a fan of that play against aggressive villans, but I don't use it as often if my holding is vulnerable and I would be getting calls from draws. That said, I don't mind the thought, it's a pity it didn't work out this time. I do think because the flop sizing was small there is more overcards coming along than just diamonds, though.

Looking back on it in a better state of mind, I do wish I had just bet turn again. I know I thought about doing it in the moment, but I know he has been gunning for me a bit. And in addition to what I already said, I was a little bit worried about getting check raised and then still having to face a river bet if I called they check raise. He can be so weird at times they I generally just play somewhat cautious with marginal value and just blast away with real value against him.

 

[JustinInMN]

Looking back on it in a better state of mind, I do wish I had just bet turn again. I know I thought about doing it in the moment, but I know he has been gunning for me a bit. And in addition to what I already said, I was a little bit worried about getting check raised and then still having to face a river bet if I called they check raise. He can be so weird at times they I generally just play somewhat cautious with marginal value and just blast away with real value against him.

You know I can't disagree with this. Sometimes it's better not to escalate against the unpredictable. Just know the downside is they get free draws they would have paid for, but the upside is you stay out of tough spots with middle holdings. And the value of middle holding against unpredictable players it they serve well as bluff catchers. Which is why I get why check the turn to try and induce on the river.

Also I think the financial pressure of playing with a $15 straddle in a nominally $1-$3 game can certainly impact emotion, and make the instinct to play small ball kick in. That's what I really think of your line, this is a pot control line. Flatting a probable 3-bet holding. Underbet a favorable flop when villain declined to c-bet. There is something to be said for playing pot control against difficult opponents.

 

[Legend5555]

You know I can't disagree with this. Sometimes it's better not to escalate against the unpredictable. Just know the downside is they get free draws they would have paid for, but the upside is you stay out of tough spots with middle holdings. And the value of middle holding against unpredictable players it they serve well as bluff catchers. Which is why I get why check the turn to try and induce on the river.

Also I think the financial pressure of playing with a $15 straddle in a nominally $1-$3 game can certainly impact emotion, and make the instinct to play small ball kick in. That's what I really think of your line, this is a pot control line. Flatting a probable 3-bet holding. Underbet a favorable flop when villain declined to c-bet. There is something to be said for playing pot control against difficult opponents.

I'm usually the only one playing "normally" in straddled pots while everyone else thinks "I'm not raising without a really good hand since it's already $10 or $15." This was really not my finest day.

 

[chipchipchip]

…so many of these bad players just never think you'll check a decent hand on flop or turn, so they bluff/pay off more on river when you show weakness especially on turn. So I overuse this play a bit.

I *love* doing this. You play fit or fold against the calling stations all night long, and the spewy bluffers want to take advantage of your tight image. Then you get into value-bet spots vs the spewy bluffy type and you can let them bet your hand for you. So many times you can get value from them in spots they’d shut down in to your aggression.

Works especially well oop. Lots of spots where your preflop raise and flop bet with TPTK get called and floated. If they have TPnoK they’ll start betting your checked turns and rivers, so you won’t lose that value. But they’ll also open up to bluff missed draws, whiffed overs, etc.

Takes a pretty specific table dynamic to pull off with any regularity, with maybe half the table being stationy, a quarter nits, and a quarter spewy aggros.

 

[Legend5555]

Part 5

Button has the rock and adds $5 to it to make it a $15 straddle.

SB ($500) min raises to 30.
Folds to me in the HJ ($700) with

CO ($800) and Button ($1000) still to act behind.

HERO is not playing his normally more aggressive A game and flats.

CO and Button fold.

Pot: $75
Eff stack: $470

Flop:

SB checks.
HERO bets $25.
SB calls.

Pot: $125
Eff stack: $445

Turn:

SB checks.
HERO checks.

In the moment I thought I didn't need much more protection from overs unless it's specifically diamonds, but I figured there is basically only 1-2 combos of diamonds at this point AKdd or AQdd. Whether or not he just check calls with those instead of betting or check raising, I'm not sure. But it's for sure possible with this guy. Plus, so many of these bad players just never think you'll check a decent hand on flop or turn, so they bluff/pay off more on river when you show weakness especially on turn. So I overuse this play a bit.

Pot: $125
Eff stack: $445

River:

SB grabs chips looking like he is going to bet 75-100, but then checks.
HERO decides to go for SUPER thin value given his read of Villain's range and bets $50 targeting A high or the rare 99.
SB quickly min raises to $100.

HERO call or fold? What do you think is going on?

 

[JustinInMN]

I think you have to call the raise just because you know what this villain is capable of, though it feels like a sucker raise.

 

[upNdown]

I'm not going to try and defend my no 3 bet pre here.

Ha! I liked it. In a straddled pot with two more to act, I don't mind taking a passive line and set-mining for as cheap as possible.

 

[chipchipchip]

Seems like an easy call here. Looks a lot like Axd that now thinks he’s free rolling to chop if you have an A or get you to fold.

You’re getting 5.5:1, and people just do so many weird things on these “play the board” situations. And with your read that SB can make weird min-raise bluffs it’s even easier.

 

[Legend5555]

Conclusion

I did end up calling because I feel this guy would always bet QQ+ on the flop. And it's unlikely knowing him that he raised 77 or 88, or any hand with just a 7 or 8. So he can really only have JJ for value, and MAAAAAAYBE 99. Though I think that's reaching. So he really only has 3 value combos. I'm getting 5 to 1, so if he can ever have a single bluff here, I think I have to call.

He turned over .

 

[grebe]

Turn:

SB checks.

HERO bet or check? If bet, sizing and why?

Not sure how I missed the follow up to this.

I am checking here hoping to get to showdown. Probably folding to aggression on the river unless we drill something.

 

[grebe]

In the moment I thought I didn't need much more protection from overs unless it's specifically diamonds, but I figured there is basically only 1-2 combos of diamonds at this point AKdd or AQdd. Whether or not he just check calls with those instead of betting or check raising, I'm not sure. But it's for sure possible with this guy. Plus, so many of these bad players just never think you'll check a decent hand on flop or turn, so they bluff/pay off more on river when you show weakness especially on turn. So I overuse this play a bit.

Pot: $125
Eff stack: $445

River:

SB grabs chips looking like he is going to bet 75-100, but then checks.

HERO?

I am going to check this here. We might get a crying call from an A high, but other than that, there is no value to be had here. 99 is the only hand that is not counterfeited that we actually still beat that might call a bet reasonably. Just take it to showdown and be happy if he doesnt have a J.