PAHWM: 25NL Zone at Ignition (1 Viewer)

[boltonguy]

No reads. Anonymous fast fold play. $0.10/$0.25 NL

Hero is in BB with . Hero is the effective stack at $30.55. V covers.
Folds to BN who raises to $0.75.
SB folds.
Hero?

 

[Legend5555]

You are in the BB, so you have a little more inventive to just call getting a better price and closing the action. Though you can and should 3 bet this hand some portion of the time too. Either works here.

Button open ranges can be pretty wide, so 3 betting should win the pot right now a decent bit. And it's an easy fold to a 4 bet.

 

[DrStrange]

Having seen how much win rate comes from stealing blinds in other threads, I think Hero should be defending this sort of hand hard. This could be in the form of 3-bettting. But it also could be a multi-street plan with a mix of post flop aggression / sticky call downs.

I think 3-bet > call. But this could be wrong. It might be more profitable to see a flop and extract value from button's c-bet when it seems out of line.

Not folding. The choice is call vs 3-bet.

PS not that I can speak much from experience. Blind stealing isn't much of a thing in the live games I frequent.

 

[Chester Copperpot]

I am definitely 3betting here, and on a flop that hits my range, firing a cbet.

 

[Chester Copperpot]

Glad to see you take the leap to 25NL!

 

[boltonguy]

This is an older hand from May when I was playing a high-variance style (that will become obvious soon) and I stepped back down to 5NL to refocus and become profitable For August I was +$38.25 over 6,735 hands at 5NL. My plan is to start September at 25NL and see how it goes. Thanks for the words of encouragement!

 

[boltonguy]

Hero decides to 3bet this hand and raises to $2.35.
I dont like this sizing being just over 3x. I have updated my play style to 3bet 4x from the blinds to help offset V's positional advantage and generate more FE.
Villain calls. Pot is now $4.80, Hero holds and the flop comes:



Hero?

 

[ChaosRock]

Button is likely opening super wide so I like a 3-bet as you're likely ahead of his range, although not by much. Calling is fine also. If 3-bet, I like going $3+, maybe $3.25 (as you already mentioned, you updated your 3-bet sizing). Now, personally, I like the same sizing whether in position or not. Yes, you're right, you want to get more folds when you're OOP but at the same time, you don't want to bloat the pot OOP. So opposing forces. Same for IP, you want to 3-bet smaller because you want more calls but also, you want to play bigger pots IP. Around 4x sounds about right regardless of position. But that's just me.

Flop is good for Hero. There's certainly much worse flops at least. I bet $1.80.

To post cards, click on smiles and scroll to the bottom.

 

[JustinInMN]

In a "zone" game against randos, I am going to 3 bet a button raise pre all day, and I agree with going for a little bigger sizing out of position. Think hero is on the money so far.

I am going to continue on this flop. Make villian have AJ to raise. I imagine you would have been four bet pre by any overpairs except maybe TT, and even that is going to be a tough call for villian.

If villian doesn't have a jack or clubs you will usually pick this up without a fight, which is fine because while you are overwhelming likely to be a favorite, there are run-outs that will get worse.

 

[boltonguy]

Hero is thinking - my range and hand are well ahead of V's on this flop. I have AA, KK, AK, QQ while V is capped.
All I have to fade is a J and I'm good. And this was in my aggro phase, so I decide to play my range and X/R believing that if I check V will bet the flop.

Hero checks.
V bets $2.53
Hero X/R to $7.34
V calls
Turn is

Pot is $40.59, Hero has and the board is


Hero?

 

[JustinInMN]

Interesting choice on the check raise, if it is motivated by assuming villian is betting widely, the call shouldn't scare you.

So I think with hero having about $20 left I think the choices are check or shove.

The shove would mainly for protection, you don't want to give the Ax misses a free draw. You probably will get called by club draws, but better to collect than allow villian to check behind. The big downside is that if villian has a j or better he will call.

The check would be to induce a bluff, but is villian likely to cooperate after the flop check raise? We could check planning to fold if we think villain is always checking draws behind. (And therefore betting value when he bets, meaning 99 is no good.) Then we can evaluate the river.

I think I like the shove best. The action really seems to indicate hero should stick with the initiative.

 

[ChaosRock]

Although I agree Hero is ahead of Villains capped range, I think that is more of a reason to bet and not c/r, personally.

What is the reason you're c/r? Do you want to get called by worse? I don't think there's any made hands you're ahead of that would call you here. Do you want to fold better? Like TT? Maybe that's one hand you could fold but that's too few. I don't think Villain is folding a good J to your c/r. Also, you do have a strong (but vulnerable) hand that you wouldn't want Villain to check behind. If you believe Villain will bet no matter what, which means he has a lot of bluffs in your opinion, why make him fold all his bluff while calling with all the hands that beat you?

So personally, I don't care for the c/r. As I said, I bet around $1.80. As you checked, I'm only flatting here and not raising.

As played, with a flop c/r and a villain call, now I'm check folding. (EDIT: misread the turn, shove or check, LOL!)

I can only see Villain calling your c/r with a flush draw or with a made hand that beats you. Is he really calling your c/r with two overs? I don't think so. Maybe two over with the A spades? Possibly. But it is thin for him to call your turn bet in this case.

So now (actually on the flop) you're turning your 99 into a buff and possibly bluffing for stacks almost.

 

[JustinInMN]

I can only see Villain calling your c/r with a flush draw or with a made hand that beats you. Is he really calling your c/r with two overs? I don't think so. Maybe two over with the A spades? Possibly. But it is thin for him to call your turn bet in this case.

I think this happens fairly often. Players don't like getting check raised off of hands, especially (and incorrectly) if they are betting widely. I think there is still possibly a decent hunk of air in an average villian's range, even after the call.

I do think I agree I prefer the bet to the check raise, but if one chooses the check raise, he is trying for extra value from a wide villain. Continuing the initiative is correct with that assumption.

 

[JustinInMN]

But overall, the nature of zoom is no reads playing randos, I do think check-raising the flop in this spot really requires more familiarity with opponents than zoom provides. It's one of the reasons I'm not a huge fan I guess.

 

[ChaosRock]

I think this happens fairly often. Players don't like getting check raised off of hands, especially (and incorrectly) if they are betting widely. I think there is still possibly a decent hunk of air in an average villian's range, even after the call.

Maybe, I'm not sure. However, I cannot assume Villain is making an asinine c/r call to justify my action. Again, just my opinion. If we all had the same lines we wouldn't haver these threads, LOL!!

EDIT: Misread the flush draw had gotten there. Since it has't, yes, Villain can have more overs to call here with two Clubs.

 

[JustinInMN]

Pot is $40.59, Hero has and the board is


Hero?

The pot math doesn't seem consistent. I have two players in for $2.53 pre and two players in for $7.34 on the flop, plus $0.02 for the folded small blind. That would put the pot at $19.76 before rake. Meaning hero has about $20.68 left if started at $30.55, so it would be a pot sized shove on the turn instead of half-pot. Which I don't think changes my logic too much that check or shove are the choices here, the shove just really puts flush draws in a spot where the price would be too high to call. Maybe there's some wiggle room for an $8 bet here or something, but I think my overall strategy would be to shove or check with this pot size and stack size.

 

[ChaosRock]

A little correction on my part (@JustinInMN) :

I thought the turn had brought 3 to a flush. The flop flush draw was Clubs and not Spades, my bad. Was too quick reading it.

So there are some Club draws Villain called the c/r with. Question is can we afford to bet ⅓ and get a fold?

Shoving might fold all but hands that beat us.

Hero is representing an over-pair thus it should be a bet or shove probably.

 

[JustinInMN]

Shoving might fold all but hands that beat us.

This is the one part I don't like about advocating for the shove for sure. It really isn't for value at all. It would purely be for protection because while I figure hero is ahead, it's hard to get value out of scare rivers, and hero will be outdrawn frequently.

 

[Legend5555]

I don't understand this check raise at all. This is a pretty dry flop. While not the best c-bet flop like K72 or A94 or something, it's still pretty good. This seems like a board you just cbet your whole range on.

On the turn, betting is now turning our hand into a bluff. But with pot size and stack size, it's either that or just try to get to showdown.

 

[boltonguy]

The pot math doesn't seem consistent. I have two players in for $2.53 pre and two players in for $7.34 on the flop, plus $0.02 for the folded small blind. That would put the pot at $19.76 before rake. Meaning hero has about $20.68 left if started at $30.55, so it would be a pot sized shove on the turn instead of half-pot. Which I don't think changes my logic too much that check or shove are the choices here, the shove just really puts flush draws in a spot where the price would be too high to call. Maybe there's some wiggle room for an $8 bet here or something, but I think my overall strategy would be to shove or check with this pot size and stack size.

Apologies - you are correct. Pot $19.48. Hero jams $21.11. V calls with and spikes the on the river to take it down.
I agree this was a very non-sensical and spewy play. I have since worked on adjusting to be less spewy.

 

[JustinInMN]

Apologies - you are correct. Pot $19.48. Hero jams $21.11. V calls with and spikes the on the river to take it down.
I agree this was a very non-sensical and spewy play. I have since worked on adjusting to be less spewy.

That's okay good ending, bad river.

The fact villain can show up here with A4s actually makes the shove on the turn better than I first thought. If villian can show up with A4s, villian might also have A6s or A5s and "playing cop" with these hands that flop one pair. If these hands are in villians range, shoving 9s becomes at least somewhat more of a value play instead of pure protection.

The check raise was an odd choice as I have belabored, but overall I think the hand was played well, bad runout. Next hand.

 

[Legend5555]

Just goes to show how wide people are defending to 3 bets when they have position. A4s would fall into my 4bet or fold range. You just can't go defending every suited A at micros with the rake and ~100bb stacks.