PAHWM: they say AK is often overplayed... (3 Viewers)

[dkersey]

I don't see many of these type posts anymore, so I thought I would do this for entertainment purposes. I'll try to let everyone have enough time to comment.

Setup: Local casino, playing $1/$2, max buy-in $200. The table was not playing crazy, pretty straight forward play. I did see a few questionable calls and rebuys. Since it was a casino taking a rake, no big stacks to speak of. There was just one "actiony" type player and was very talkative/jovial guy that everyone liked at the table. I had only been seated about 30 minutes and had only played a few hands. I had won a couple of small pots by showing the goods, so my image was probably a tight ABC player. Hero's and "actiony" Villians stack is around $240 each. Full table.

Hand: I get in the BB. The "actiony" player 2 to my left raised it to $12, and there were 2 callers, and I called. Flop is . Action is on me...

 

[Eriks]

Do not like the flat. 3bet to 50ish pre. As played check

 

[jayfiggy]

Yeah, flatting there is unideal in pretty much every situation. 3bet large 50ish or more, then check, like Eriks said.

 

[Legend5555]

$36 out there already. Presumably we are no deeper than $200. Don't want to go multiway. Also don't want to 3 bet to an amount that's 25-30% of our stack and go to a flop out of position.

Just jam. Often you win $36 with no rake. Sometimes you get it on flipping with a small overlay. Both are fine.

Whenever the amount of money in the pot approaches 20% of our stack, just lean toward jamming hands that want to see all 5 cards. If you had AA, then a smaller size is fine since you are fine getting all in on any board this shallow.

As played, check in flow. Looking to check raise jam if there is a bet and call before it gets back to us. Check call if facing a single bet and it looks like it's going to go heads up. Given it's multiway and you are shallow, no one is folding the case A. So you can just look to cooler someone. Otherwise, no one is really going to have anything and is never giving you money except if someone hits a 3 outter to a boat.

This is one of those spots where if someone catches up to a hand, it often beats you.

 

[chippitydoodah]

$36 out there already. Presumably we are no deeper than $200. Don't want to go multiway. Also don't want to 3 bet to an amount that's 25-30% of our stack and go to a flop out of position.

Just jam. Often you win $36 with no rake. Sometimes you get it on flipping with a small overlay. Both are fine.

Whenever the amount of money in the pot approaches 20% of our stack, just lean toward jamming hands that want to see all 5 cards. If you had AA, then a smaller size is fine since you are fine getting all in on any board this shallow.

As played, check in flow. Looking to check raise jam if there is a bet and call before it gets back to us. Check call if facing a single bet and it looks like it's going to go heads up. Given it's multiway and you are shallow, no one is folding the case A. So you can just look to cooler someone. Otherwise, no one is really going to have anything and is never giving you money except if someone hits a 3 outter to a boat.

This is one of those spots where if someone catches up to a hand, it often beats you.

$49 in the pot not $36 (4 in @ $12 + SB $1). Doesn't change much just pointing it out.

 

[mdt11]

Raise big, 50 minimum, could get away with 60 or 70, or even a jam. AK is a premium but you’ll miss more often than not and then have to play four ways OOP. Thin that field. Even taking it down right there is great. 10BB/hour is considered a good win rate and you’ve got a chance to get 20 in one hand without even seeing a flop!

As played, check, planning to check call down. If no one stabs flop, bet small on nearly all turns.

 

[Legend5555]

$49 in the pot not $36 (4 in @ $12 + SB $1). Doesn't change much just pointing it out.

Raise and 2 calls before Hero. $36. Our call doesn't matter when deciding on the jam and the 20% threshold.

 

[BGinGA]

Must be a bad math day.

There is $39 in the pot when pre-flop action reaches Hero (12 × 3 plus the blinds).

 

[Taghkanic]

Must be a bad math day.

There is $39 in the pot when pre-flop action reaches Hero (12 × 3 plus the blinds).

Accounting for rake?

 

[BGinGA]

Accounting for rake?

Pretty unlikely the casino is dragging rake before the pre-flop action is complete...

 

[Legend5555]

Must be a bad math day.

There is $39 in the pot when pre-flop action reaches Hero (12 × 3 plus the blinds).

Hero is in the BB (so that 2 can be discounted as it's going to be part of the call, raise, or jam) and it wasn't clear from the OP if the SB was a caller or not. So just making it simple. The difference between $36, $37, $38, and $39 is irrelevant given my advice and line.

 

[BGinGA]

Hero (first to act on the flop, so clearly sb folded) can either fold and lose $2, flat call for another $10 and close the action, or raise any amount from $22 total up to the size of his stack (approximately $240) with $39 in the pot.

The first two options are pretty weak (as is a small or min-raise), leaving 5x+ and shove re-raises as viable options. Most would favor an all-in shove given the stack sizes and facing three players (initial raiser and two callers).

In any case, numerical accuracy matters. Anything less is just laziness.

 

[Taghkanic]

Pretty unlikely the casino is dragging rake before the pre-flop action is complete...

No, but the players ought to know what the minimum amount is that will come out once the pot gets beyond a certain size.

 

[Legend5555]

Hero (first to act on the flop, so clearly sb folded) can either fold and lose $2, flat call for another $10 and close the action, or raise any amount from $22 total up to the size of his stack (approximately $240) with $39 in the pot.

The first two options are pretty weak (as is a small or min-raise), leaving 5x+ and shove re-raises as viable options. Most would favor an all-in shove given the stack sizes and facing three players (initial raiser and two callers).

In any case, numerical accuracy matters. Anything less is just laziness.

Good lord, you really are insufferable sometimes, Dave.

Also he only mentioned the villain's stack. Not his own. And from a profitablity point of view on the shove like I suggested, our $2 being in the pot is meaningless. We are driving our entire stack invoicing the $2 to win $37 (now that ours clear to me the SB folded which I didn't catch at first). If we just call, then sure, it's $10 to win $39. But (and no offense to the OP), just calling with AKs out of the BB with this much money in the pot is just a bad play.

 

[chippitydoodah]

Hero's and "actiony" Villians stack is around $240 each. Full table.

We do know Hero's stack

 

[Taghkanic]

Preflop AKs does not particularly need or want to play four-handed. I think a 3bet is automatic unless Hero knows something specific about all the villains which argues for a flat. (If AKs is not a raise over two callers, then what is?)

As played, there are no draws to speak of on this rainbow board (unless you think they are calling $12 with 34s or 23s, which are gutshots with maybe backdoor flush draws). Do you are losing only to three combos of 55. And there are essentially no turns to worry about except pocket pairs boating up (also very slim chance).

Out of position I see no reason to do anything but check the flop—as you would with almost your entire range on this flop—and hope someone bets it. If it goes to the turn decent chance someone catches a card that improves them to a worse hand and you can check raise or (I’d prefer) lead to get at least one caller.

Going to be hard to get stacks in unless someone has Ax (not a lot of combos left) or improves significantly.

 

[chippitydoodah]

Why do I see this playing out as a shove fest on the flop and then this:
Hero
Actiony
Player 3
Player 4 FOLDED

Trust me...if I were playing this hand online this is EXACTLY how it would play out!

 

[dkersey]

Some good points here. I agree that the standard pre-flop raise should have been around 50. The 12 raise was a standard opening at the table and thus I felt was weak. I didn’t want to induce folds and just collect the blinds, and as the thread title says, I didn’t want to “overplay” AK. I’ve seen too many times where AK raises big, someone calls with 9s and the flop doesn’t have a A or K.

On with the hand… Hero: in the BB. The "actiony" player 2 to my left raised it to $12, and there were 2 callers, and I called. Flop is .

Since I’m first to act in the BB, I figured I was WAAAAY ahead of everyone and didn’t want to show my strength yet, so I check, hoping Mr Actiony would bet. He didn’t disappoint. He bet $15. Okay, he disappointed me a little bit here, I was hoping something bigger. The other 2 callers immediately fold, and I pause then call the $15.

The turn is a .

 

[Goldfish]

@dkersey why do you say - “Since it was a casino taking a rake, no big stacks to speak of.” I don’t understand why the rake has anything to do with stack size. Just curious.

 

[dkersey]

@dkersey why do you say - “Since it was a casino taking a rake, no big stacks to speak of.” I don’t understand why the rake has anything to do with stack size. Just curious.

Valid question: I’m in Texas where the card houses are not allowed to take a rake, so the stacks get big pretty quickly because no $ are being taken off the table. It’s common where most people have stacks of $1K+ at a $1/$2 game. However, this was a casino in Oklahoma (winstar) where the rake is 6+1 (rake + bbj).

 

[Taghkanic]

Some good points here. I agree that the standard pre-flop raise should have been around 50. The 12 raise was a standard opening at the table and thus I felt was weak. I didn’t want to induce folds and just collect the blinds, and as the thread title says, I didn’t want to “overplay” AK. I’ve seen too many times where AK raises big, someone calls with 9s and the flop doesn’t have a A or K.

On with the hand… Hero: in the BB. The "actiony" player 2 to my left raised it to $12, and there were 2 callers, and I called. Flop is .

Since I’m first to act in the BB, I figured I was WAAAAY ahead of everyone and didn’t want to show my strength yet, so I check, hoping Mr Actiony would bet. He didn’t disappoint. He bet $15. Okay, he disappointed me a little bit here, I was hoping something bigger. The other 2 callers immediately fold, and I pause then call the $15.

Any thought to checkraising small instead?

If this guy is in fact Mr. Action, presumably he will put another $30 if you click it back with a raise to just $45.

If so, then you’ve got a pot large enough to get it all in on the turn or at least on the river.

If he won’t come along for another $30 in a pot which is already almost double that, then either he isn’t really an action player or your image is so tight that he’s never putting more money in on an AAx board against you.

 

[chippitydoodah]

Any thought to checkraising small instead?

If this guy is in fact Mr. Action, presumably he will put another $30 if you click it back with a raise to just $45.

If so, then you’ve got a pot large enough to get it all in on the turn or at least on the river.

If he won’t come along for another $30 in a pot which is already almost double that, then either he isn’t really an action player or your image is so tight that he’s never putting more money in on an AAx board against you.

Or he's giving up representing the ace

 

[dkersey]

Any thought to checkraising small instead?

If this guy is in fact Mr. Action, presumably he will put another $30 if you click it back with a raise to just $45.

If so, then you’ve got a pot large enough to get it all in on the turn or at least on the river.

If he won’t come along for another $30 in a pot which is already almost double that, then either he isn’t really an action player or your image is so tight that he’s never putting more money in on an AAx board against you.

I didn’t think about chk/raise very long. My image was tight, and I had seen him continue bet each street several hands winning pots without having anything. I thought he didn’t have anything and was trying to get me out of the hand. I figured any show of strength would sound off alarm bells and shut him down. Now that I think about it afterwards, the bets were small. If he were bluffing and wanted me out of the hand, the bets would have been bigger.

 

[chippitydoodah]

Sounds like you're going to get

Spoiler

Flushed down the river
Or did he sail to the river?

Spoiler

 

[dkersey]

On with the hand… Hero: in the BB. The "actiony" player 2 to my left raised it to $12, and there were 2 callers, and I called. Flop is .

I checked. Villain bet $15. The other 2 callers immediately fold, and I pause then call the $15.

The turn is a .

Let’s get to the spicy part!

I check again. Villain bets $30. I pause and then call $30. River is . The Nuts!

I pause, bet $50. Villain pauses, raises to $100. I pause a little longer this time, and go all-in. He goes deep into the tank….

 

[Taghkanic]

I didn’t think about chk/raise very long. My image was tight, and I had seen him continue bet each street several hands winning pots without having anything. I thought he didn’t have anything and was trying to get me out of the hand. I figured any show of strength would sound off alarm bells and shut him down. Now that I think about it afterwards, the bets were small. If he were bluffing and wanted me out of the hand, the bets would have been bigger.

I guess what I’ve come to learn over time is that not going for the big score when I do make a big hand — because “I don’t want to scare off my customer” — costs me more in the long run than aggression sometimes chasing them off.

Sure, the board is scary and your image is tight. If he folds, you’ve still scooped a pot of ~25BB when he folds to a check raise there—still an OK outcome.

But the less common times when you manage to get it all in make up for lots more times when he folds.

 

[Taghkanic]

And at low stakes it amazes me how often people don’t believe you (think they’re getting bluffed, think their second pair is good, etc.) and talk themselves into a call, even when it seems almost inconceivable that you’d raise on a board like that without the goods.

Anyway, looks like it worked out for you (even if he folded to the all-in). But I tend to get more calls on the river if the pot has already been built up to where the villain feels he can’t fold, because the price is “too good.”

 

[Legend5555]

Some good points here. I agree that the standard pre-flop raise should have been around 50. The 12 raise was a standard opening at the table and thus I felt was weak. I didn’t want to induce folds and just collect the blinds, and as the thread title says, I didn’t want to “overplay” AK. I’ve seen too many times where AK raises big, someone calls with 9s and the flop doesn’t have a A or K.

On with the hand… Hero: in the BB. The "actiony" player 2 to my left raised it to $12, and there were 2 callers, and I called. Flop is .

Since I’m first to act in the BB, I figured I was WAAAAY ahead of everyone and didn’t want to show my strength yet, so I check, hoping Mr Actiony would bet. He didn’t disappoint. He bet $15. Okay, he disappointed me a little bit here, I was hoping something bigger. The other 2 callers immediately fold, and I pause then call the $15.

The turn is a .

That bet is so small, I think you are forced to raise right now. You are OOP, so you can't guarantee a bet goes in on the turn, and if you don't make this pot bigger after that tiny bet, you are going to have a hard time getting it all in by the river.

 

[dkersey]

Let’s get to the spicy part!

I check again. Villain bets $30. I pause and then call $30. River is . The Nuts!

I pause, bet $50. Villain pauses, raises to $100. I pause a little longer this time, and go all-in. He goes deep into the tank….

He finally stands up and says “I can’t lay this down, I’ll call”, tables 55!

He flopped a boat! I thought I was ahead the whole time, when I actually was behind the whole time. Massive cooler. It’s nice to be on the good side of these for a change.

 

[surfik]

not so much "overplayed" but played incorrected in regards to bet sizing and overall situation on the table....