Tourney Rebuy & addon specifics. Does this make sense? (2 Viewers)

[legonick]

Rebuy & addon specifics. Does this make sense?

I'm interested in adding a single rebuy or add-on to my STTs. I've had a few instances where someone busted early and would like to keep playing. Also I'm going to try to expand my pool of players by trying out a local bar game and I think if I can pick up anyone from that area they'll be a little more gamble-y and want to have a rebuy option since they are used to running 2 tournaments a "game night", but I only do one longer tournament.

So my question is, would this make any sense?

$15 buy-in, 1 token which is a rebuy/add-on token. At some point rebuys close. Those who still have the token can optionally add-on for $5 more worth of chips.

T20000 starting stack, so $1 = T1333.333. So $5 = T6666.666. But round up to say T7000 at least for extra incentive to not bust out. Rebuy is for full amount, T20000.

This would limit total losses to either $15*2 ($30), $15+$5 ($20) or $15.

I know in many cases people do a half-cost, half-starting-stack add-on, but with a $15 buy-in I don't want to deal with $7.50. I like the $15 price point as I have some buddies who are NOT regulars but maybe attend every other or every 3rd game just to keep in touch, and I think they may balk at hitting or breaking the $20 price point...none of them can argue against $15 being too much basically.

This is the structure I hope to keep:

Blind raising, 8 or 9 players, targeting 3.5 hours without breaks:
1  ??  (??:??) 100  200  -
2  ??  (??:??) 100  300  50%*
3  ??  (??:??) 200  400  33.33%
4  ??  (??:??) 300  600  50%
--> 12 min. break
5  ??  (??:??) 400  800  33.33%
6  ??  (??:??) 500  1000 25%
7  ??  (??:??) 600  1200 20%
8  ??  (??:??) 800  1600 33.33%
--> 10 min. break
9  ??  (??:??) 1000 2000 25%
10 ??  (??:??) 1200 2400 20%
11 ??  (??:??) 1600 3200 33.33%
--> 10 min. break + color-up 100s & 500s
12 ??  (??:??) 2K   4K   25%
13 ??  (??:??) 3K   6K   50%
14 ??  (??:??) 4K   8K   33.33%
15 ??  (??:??) 6K   12K  50%
--> 10 min. break (optional, player's choice)
16 ??  (??:??) 8K   16K  33.33%
17 ??  (??:??) 10K  20K  20%
18 ??  (??:??) 12K  24K  20%
19 ??  (??:??) 16K  32K  33.33%
20 ??  (??:??) 20K  40K  25%
21 ??  (??:??) 30K  60K  50%

*SB only 100, lessens impact of 50% jump

This pays out 50%/30%/20% for top 3, and is designed to be a 9-person STT. In the case of less than 9 players the blind levels are adjusted upwards to attempt to keep run-time the same.

So now the questions....
1. When should the rebuy period end?
2. What do rebuys and add-ons do to the final runtime? How do I keep it around 3.5 hours, not including breaks?
3. How much should the $5 add-on get you in tournament chips?
4. Does this make sense as a whole? Should the add-on amount ($ and/or tournament chips) be changed?
5. Can you recommend any improvements?
6. What's the math behind exercising these options - is it worth re-buying no matter what? What if 1 player had 80% of the chips in play...then a rebuy would give you a small stack compared to him. Should you always take the add-on? What if you have a massive chip lead? Than a $5 add-on won't add much, although you'll probably take it down or at least cash, so you'll be "getting your money back".
7. Other thoughts?

Thank you for your time!

TLDR: Want to consider adding re-buys, but am not sure of the best way, what level to cut off rebuys, or impact to game, or way to keep cost about where I want them.

 

[Legend5555]

Not related to your main point, but looking at the structure...

I've become a fan of eliminating the T100 at 1k/2k and going...

1k/2k
1k/2.5k
1.5k/3k

Just makes it a bit cleaner and less chip heavy.

 

[trigs]

I think it's kind of confusing to have a token that is both a rebuy token and at the same time an add-on token that can be worth $15 or $5 respectively. I'd suggest just making both the rebuy and the add-on the same chip amount (T20000) and cost ($15) to avoid confusion. However, if you want to have a rebuy option and an add-on option that is not the same cost and chip amount, then I'd suggest getting rid of the token representing both. You don't need a token to keep track of rebuys and add-ons really - just a notepad.

Another way you could do it is how @moose has done it in the past for some of his tournaments. He uses a lammer that acts as a rebuy and/or an add-on at the same time. For example, everyone gets the starting stack (let's say T20000) and a lammer that is also worth T20000. Players can choose to cash in the lammer for the chips whenever they want during the rebuy period. Some do it right away. Some hold onto it until they bust and then cash it in as a rebuy. At some point though, the "rebuy" period ends and everyone who still has a lammer is forced to cash it in for chips. No need to up the buy-in in this case (since you say your players don't want to play too high), and you still get the safety net of a rebuy and the feel of an add-on at the end of the rebuy period.

 

[legonick]

I think it's kind of confusing to have a token that is both a rebuy token and at the same time an add-on token that can be worth $15 or $5 respectively. I'd suggest just making both the rebuy and the add-on the same chip amount (T20000) and cost ($15) to avoid confusion. However, if you want to have a rebuy option and an add-on option that is not the same cost and chip amount, then I'd suggest getting rid of the token representing both. You don't need a token to keep track of rebuys and add-ons really - just a notepad.

Another way you could do it is how @moose has done it in the past for some of his tournaments. He uses a lammer that acts as a rebuy and/or an add-on at the same time. For example, everyone gets the starting stack (let's say T20000) and a lammer that is also worth T20000. Players can choose to cash in the lammer for the chips whenever they want during the rebuy period. Some do it right away. Some hold onto it until they bust and then cash it in as a rebuy. At some point though, the "rebuy" period ends and everyone who still has a lammer is forced to cash it in for chips. No need to up the buy-in in this case (since you say your players don't want to play too high), and you still get the safety net of a rebuy and the feel of an add-on at the end of the rebuy period.

This is kind of similar...the "token" can be used as a rebuy or an add-on once the rebuy period ends. I am drawing from that concept.

The 1 thing that rubs me the wrong way about what @moose does is, if the lammer is cashed in immediately (which is probably the best idea, unless you are already chipleader, so you are maximizing your working chips) then the rebuy element is lost. People can still bust early and be out of the game. And one guy cashing in his lammer early means you should also cash in early to have access to the chips he just put on the table.

I'm trying to discourage reckless play, hence tying the rebuy and add-on together. If you blow your entire stack on 76s because you had too many beers you don't get the benefit of the add-on. But if you want to keep playing and juice the pot for everyone else, and potentially yourself, you can rebuy. Only once though, so you can't fire off a ton of bullets in a drunken punt. For NOT being a donkey you get the benefit of a cheap add-on which gives you better "chips per $" than the buy-in or rebuy. I'm hoping that weights the add-on to being more beneficial than going all-in with a marginal hand to "take advantage of your rebuy option".

Basically, the "pre-buy" concept is interesting, but I feel like it encourages reckless play. Looking for something that encourages cautious play but still protects the total coolers or "donkey punts" for people who don't want to quit playing too early. So there needs to be some game incentive to not get it in bad and hope for a suck-out.

I get what you are saying though. I was trying to keep everything optional for the people who really want to be cheapskates. But maybe I just keep everything at $15, do a lammer, but do NOT allow it to be turned in unless you bust or make the end of the rebuy period. A regular pre-buy but keep the "cooler protection" aspect. I was hoping that the $$$ involved in a rebuy would be another good deterrent to reckless play. So you need to spend more $$$ and lose access to the good price-per-chip add-on. Feels like that would be enough to encourage "freezeout-style" play but allow people the guarantee of a bit more game time.

 

[moose]

But it is an STT. You don't need the lammer if you are going to make them pay for a rebuy. You should be able to remember who has rebought.

It is not really fair to give only some players an addon. When the rebuy period ends, everyone remaining in the tournament has reached the same point; how they got there (rebuy or not) is irrelevant, especially if you require them to bust before a rebuy. If you have to pay for the addon then everyone should be eligible. As soon as someone wins a pot, the value of a starting stack drops, so anyone who rebuys is already at a stack disadvantage, this effect is multiplied as soon as the blinds go up as well. Rebuyers have already paid a penalty by having to pay to enter twice, don't hammer them more by not letting them addon. By pure theory alone, if the addon is 7k and a rebuy is 20k, then as the end of rebuy period nears, anyone with less than 13k should be shoving so they either double and can take the addon, or bust and take the rebuy. I don't think this is the effect you want.

What I do it split the starting stack, 50% as chips, 50% as the lammer. Your starting stack is 20k, so you can easily split it 10 and 10. So for one price they get 10k chips and the lammer, which can be exchanged for 10k. The reason why I make it exchangeable at any time is because it doesn't tilt the action when someone gets low in chips, say 1-2k. Then they are shoving all the time, just trying to dump their chips so they can rebuy. The lammer doesn't last forever, just an hour or so and then it must be exchanged, just long enough so someone doesn't bust super early and go home disappointed that they didn't get to play long.

You are right, in that proper decision making would be to exchange the lammer right away so that you cover the table, the defense to that, of course is for everyone else to exchange their lammer as well. But it just doesn't happen that often. Most players appreciate the value of having a second chance. As people start to fall to <50% of starting stack, then the lammers start to get exchanged, which prevents the low stacked shovefests. By then, also there will be some players with larger stacks, so the play remains pretty even with no-one gaining an too much of an advantage for having cashed in their lammer.

 

[trigs]

But it is an STT. You don't need the lammer if you are going to make them pay for a rebuy. You should be able to remember who has rebought.

It is not really fair to give only some players an addon. When the rebuy period ends, everyone remaining in the tournament has reached the same point; how they got there (rebuy or not) is irrelevant, especially if you require them to bust before a rebuy. If you have to pay for the addon then everyone should be eligible. As soon as someone wins a pot, the value of a starting stack drops, so anyone who rebuys is already at a stack disadvantage, this effect is multiplied as soon as the blinds go up as well. Rebuyers have already paid a penalty by having to pay to enter twice, don't hammer them more by not letting them addon. By pure theory alone, if the addon is 7k and a rebuy is 20k, then as the end of rebuy period nears, anyone with less than 13k should be shoving so they either double and can take the addon, or bust and take the rebuy. I don't think this is the effect you want.

What I do it split the starting stack, 50% as chips, 50% as the lammer. Your starting stack is 20k, so you can easily split it 10 and 10. So for one price they get 10k chips and the lammer, which can be exchanged for 10k. The reason why I make it exchangeable at any time is because it doesn't tilt the action when someone gets low in chips, say 1-2k. Then they are shoving all the time, just trying to dump their chips so they can rebuy. The lammer doesn't last forever, just an hour or so and then it must be exchanged, just long enough so someone doesn't bust super early and go home disappointed that they didn't get to play long.

You are right, in that proper decision making would be to exchange the lammer right away so that you cover the table, the defense to that, of course is for everyone else to exchange their lammer as well. But it just doesn't happen that often. Most players appreciate the value of having a second chance. As people start to fall to <50% of starting stack, then the lammers start to get exchanged, which prevents the low stacked shovefests. By then, also there will be some players with larger stacks, so the play remains pretty even with no-one gaining an too much of an advantage for having cashed in their lammer.

Explained much better than I could have done so.

 

[CrazyEddie]

A great suggestion from previous discussions around rebuys and add-ons: instead of allowing add-ons, allow people who still have chips to rebuy at the same price as people who have busted out, but they have to surrender their current stack to do so. Surrendered chips return to the bank.

This prevents the unfairness of add-ons. It's strategically correct to always take an add-on if it's offered. If everyone gets a token that's good for a rebuy, then anyone who doesn't bust out by the end of the rebuy period has wasted an opportunity to play more aggressively. If you let people who haven't used their rebuy token to add on instead, then you've harshly penalized those who did bust out by denying them their chance to add on.

By using surrender-stack-and-rebuy instead of add-on, you put everyone on an even footing whether they've busted out or not.

 

[legonick]

But it is an STT. You don't need the lammer if you are going to make them pay for a rebuy. You should be able to remember who has rebought.

It is not really fair to give only some players an addon. When the rebuy period ends, everyone remaining in the tournament has reached the same point; how they got there (rebuy or not) is irrelevant, especially if you require them to bust before a rebuy. If you have to pay for the addon then everyone should be eligible. As soon as someone wins a pot, the value of a starting stack drops, so anyone who rebuys is already at a stack disadvantage, this effect is multiplied as soon as the blinds go up as well. Rebuyers have already paid a penalty by having to pay to enter twice, don't hammer them more by not letting them addon. By pure theory alone, if the addon is 7k and a rebuy is 20k, then as the end of rebuy period nears, anyone with less than 13k should be shoving so they either double and can take the addon, or bust and take the rebuy. I don't think this is the effect you want.

What I do it split the starting stack, 50% as chips, 50% as the lammer. Your starting stack is 20k, so you can easily split it 10 and 10. So for one price they get 10k chips and the lammer, which can be exchanged for 10k. The reason why I make it exchangeable at any time is because it doesn't tilt the action when someone gets low in chips, say 1-2k. Then they are shoving all the time, just trying to dump their chips so they can rebuy. The lammer doesn't last forever, just an hour or so and then it must be exchanged, just long enough so someone doesn't bust super early and go home disappointed that they didn't get to play long.

You are right, in that proper decision making would be to exchange the lammer right away so that you cover the table, the defense to that, of course is for everyone else to exchange their lammer as well. But it just doesn't happen that often. Most players appreciate the value of having a second chance. As people start to fall to <50% of starting stack, then the lammers start to get exchanged, which prevents the low stacked shovefests. By then, also there will be some players with larger stacks, so the play remains pretty even with no-one gaining an too much of an advantage for having cashed in their lammer.

Yeah maybe I just drop the add-on totally. I don't like the idea of everybody fishing out a few more bucks for the add-on anyways, especially because I was looking for a small add-on.

The nice thing about a true rebuy is exactly that it does punish the rebuyer. There are 2 cases I'm trying to cover. The legit cooler/bad beat - think set over set or pocket AA over pocket KK. And the "mistake/donkey" - maybe a newer player, maybe had a few beers, maybe gets too aggressive and punts it off without really thinking about the "oh I'm out, well that sucks" side. They get 1 more chance, if they want it, and this time maybe they'll play properly or at least put some thought into it! I like that the pure rebuy juices the purse for everyone else...for the people who didn't punt it off. The pre-buy doesn't get any more money into the middle. So where's the punishment for the guy who donks it off, and reward for players who put thought into their play?

I think I have 3 player types in regards to rebuys:
- The "poker player": likes the game and believes he has a reasonable chance at the money, so for both those reasons is OK with a rebuy.
- The "drunk donkey": is having fun and doesn't really care about the $15. $15 or $30 makes no difference to them. Just wants to keep playing and chatting and drinking.
- The "cheapskate": doesn't really play poker outside of occasionally attending this STT game. Really only comes to keep up relationships. Pretty dang cheap because they don't believe in their ability to make the money...likely have never made the money. Happy to donk off all their chips when they get tired so they can go home. The one category who would probably skip a rebuy.

@moose have you tried running it without the option to turn in at any time? I'm guessing, since people aren't taking that option anyways, it wouldn't play much differently. And because it's a forced turn-in still pretty early, why not just nit up and wait for the lammer to get paid out? Only in the case were it was a total almost-all-in cooler on the first hand would it make sense to "throw away" the rest of your chips to get to your last 10K for that early game "cheap" action.

 

[legonick]

A great suggestion from previous discussions around rebuys and add-ons: instead of allowing add-ons, allow people who still have chips to rebuy at the same price as people who have busted out, but they have to surrender their current stack to do so. Surrendered chips return to the bank.

This prevents the unfairness of add-ons. It's strategically correct to always take an add-on if it's offered. If everyone gets a token that's good for a rebuy, then anyone who doesn't bust out by the end of the rebuy period has wasted an opportunity to play more aggressively. If you let people who haven't used their rebuy token to add on instead, then you've harshly penalized those who did bust out by denying them their chance to add on.

By using surrender-stack-and-rebuy instead of add-on, you put everyone on an even footing whether they've busted out or not.

Why would anyone ever take that though? Or it's offered only at the end of the rebuy period? This is the best way to ensure a shovefest. Wouldn't everyone always shove in the hope that they could get a couple free double-ups and then not have to rebuy?

Penalizing those who busted out is the goal because I want to encourage people to play like it's a freezeout but protect against some dude driving 45 minutes to punt off his stack on a total cooler on the 2nd hand of the night, or some guy who just wants to drink and play from getting kicked early by basically making a mistake (thought being, he'll treat his 1 rebuy properly and not just dump it back in bad).

 

[ekricket]

@moose have you tried running it without the option to turn in at any time?

this is what we do, plus it’s only a half rebuy. This lets someone who experienced a cooler still get some play time, but discourages the short stack shove and encourages better play.
Starting stack is 15000, with one 5000 being the half rebuy/addon and not in play until you get felted or at the first break.
When someone gets felted early they just cash their 5000 from a player and play continues without hassling the host. It’s a rare occasion anymore that someone gets felted in the early rounds because people value the addon more than some reckless play for a half stack rebuy.

 

[CrazyEddie]

Why would anyone ever take that though? Or it's offered only at the end of the rebuy period? This is the best way to ensure a shovefest. Wouldn't everyone always shove in the hope that they could get a couple free double-ups and then not have to rebuy?

You can offer it at any time, but the time where it matters is close to the end of the rebuy period. Allowing rebuy-with-surrender as an option in addition to the usual rebuy-when-felted reduces the amount of desperation shoving at that time. Explanation from the horse's mouth:

If, for example, you have endured a bad beat and are down to just 1500 chips from your original 10k stack in the final few minutes of the re-buy period, in a game which has seen a fair number of rebuys so far (say avg stack of 15k).

Without surrender rules, your only real options are to try and rebuild your stack (starting with 10% of an avg stack, good luck with that), or shove and hope to lose so you can re-buy and get enough chips to be somewhat of a threat (while simulaneously hoping that you don't actually win somehow with 72o and be forced to play with just 3k, or worse, everybody folds and you still have under 2k when the the re-buy period ends).

A surrender option ~guarantees~ that you can re-buy, no matter what craziness ensues, and totally eliminates the silly shove-to-lose mentality that randomly benefits just one player (and not you).

Surrender is not a requirement, it's just another re-buy option when extremely short-stacked, which can only work to your advantage and never your detriment.

 

[legonick]

You can offer it at any time, but the time where it matters is close to the end of the rebuy period. Allowing rebuy-with-surrender as an option in addition to the usual rebuy-when-felted reduces the amount of desperation shoving at that time. Explanation from the horse's mouth:

I don't see how it would reduce a shovefest. At that point, it'd be a total freeroll to just keep shoving. But I do see how it makes sense in that you at least aren't hoping to lose, because you can just rebuy to a full stack. I guess that's how it somewhat reduces it in theory. You should be shoving anything hoping to win VS shoving only bad hands hoping to lose, LOL.

 

[CrazyEddie]

... or even just shove your moderate-to-good hands, since there's no reason to shove your almost-certain losers. Hence, (somewhat) reduced amounts of shoving.

 

[legonick]

... or even just shove your moderate-to-good hands, since there's no reason to shove your almost-certain losers. Hence, (somewhat) reduced amounts of shoving.

Very small...why not shove and maybe double-triple-etc.-up, versus forfeit-rebuy which guarantees your chips won't be utilized?

 

[moose]

Yeah maybe I just drop the add-on totally. I don't like the idea of everybody fishing out a few more bucks for the add-on anyways, especially because I was looking for a small add-on.

The nice thing about a true rebuy is exactly that it does punish the rebuyer. There are 2 cases I'm trying to cover. The legit cooler/bad beat - think set over set or pocket AA over pocket KK. And the "mistake/donkey" - maybe a newer player, maybe had a few beers, maybe gets too aggressive and punts it off without really thinking about the "oh I'm out, well that sucks" side. They get 1 more chance, if they want it, and this time maybe they'll play properly or at least put some thought into it! I like that the pure rebuy juices the purse for everyone else...for the people who didn't punt it off. The pre-buy doesn't get any more money into the middle. So where's the punishment for the guy who donks it off, and reward for players who put thought into their play?

I think I have 3 player types in regards to rebuys:
- The "poker player": likes the game and believes he has a reasonable chance at the money, so for both those reasons is OK with a rebuy.
- The "drunk donkey": is having fun and doesn't really care about the $15. $15 or $30 makes no difference to them. Just wants to keep playing and chatting and drinking.
- The "cheapskate": doesn't really play poker outside of occasionally attending this STT game. Really only comes to keep up relationships. Pretty dang cheap because they don't believe in their ability to make the money...likely have never made the money. Happy to donk off all their chips when they get tired so they can go home. The one category who would probably skip a rebuy.

@moose have you tried running it without the option to turn in at any time? I'm guessing, since people aren't taking that option anyways, it wouldn't play much differently. And because it's a forced turn-in still pretty early, why not just nit up and wait for the lammer to get paid out? Only in the case were it was a total almost-all-in cooler on the first hand would it make sense to "throw away" the rest of your chips to get to your last 10K for that early game "cheap" action.

All my tourneys are longer, deep stack events geared to higher level play. I'm not looking to penalize anyone. I look at it as a freezeout with insurance. I copied it from the WSOP, where it was used in some of the higher variance events. I started it after I had a player who busted in the 1st level after driving more than an hour to get to the game. He went home right after because he knew it would hours before any cash game started.

I prefer a freezeout with insurance to a pure freezeout for home games where your primary goal is to ensure everyone has a good time. And I prefer that to offering a rebuy, because what you are doing is often making the weaker players pay double. In the long term it just takes their money quicker and drives them away from the game. In a freezeout, someone with a smaller budget for poker is going to know exactly what that day is going to cost them.

I think that if a rebuy is offered, then run it as a pure unlimited rebuy, with the starting stack low and the rebuy cost low to encourage the wild play. Everyone knows going in, it is a fun event and not serious poker.

 

[moose]

this is what we do, plus it’s only a half rebuy. This lets someone who experienced a cooler still get some play time, but discourages the short stack shove and encourages better play.
Starting stack is 15000, with one 5000 being the half rebuy/addon and not in play until you get felted or at the first break.
When someone gets felted early they just cash their 5000 from a player and play continues without hassling the host. It’s a rare occasion anymore that someone gets felted in the early rounds because people value the addon more than some reckless play for a half stack rebuy.

The problem with using a regular chip instead of a lammer is when someone forgets it is not in play and puts it into the pot (cough, cough, me) and loses it. (And everyone else at the table forgot it wasn't in play also) Also after it gets exchanged, then you have the situation where some players have live 5k chips that are IN play, while the other 5k chips are still out of play. That can also lead to confusion. You can still make life simple for the host if you exchange the lammer for a single 5k chip and let the player go find change.

 

[grebe]

Honestly, if your group isn't very poker-wise...which it sounds like at least part of it is not, I would make it very simple. I would allow unlimited rebuys up until first break, then shut it down. No add-ons. If some players don't like the unlimited, you could make it just one. I wouldnt make it any more complicated than that. Your energy is better spent making sure your structure is good and the tournament runs smooth than trying to fabricate a way to minimize people's losses.

Also, it is not your job to limit anyone's losses, except your own. At $15, I would think anybody should be able to financially recover from losing a couple/three bullets for a night of cards. If somebody busts and decides to pack it in early, that's cool too.

 

[legonick]

All my tourneys are longer, deep stack events geared to higher level play. I'm not looking to penalize anyone. I look at it as a freezeout with insurance. I copied it from the WSOP, where it was used in some of the higher variance events. I started it after I had a player who busted in the 1st level after driving more than an hour to get to the game. He went home right after because he knew it would hours before any cash game started.

I prefer a freezeout with insurance to a pure freezeout for home games where your primary goal is to ensure everyone has a good time. And I prefer that to offering a rebuy, because what you are doing is often making the weaker players pay double. In the long term it just takes their money quicker and drives them away from the game. In a freezeout, someone with a smaller budget for poker is going to know exactly what that day is going to cost them.

I think that if a rebuy is offered, then run it as a pure unlimited rebuy, with the starting stack low and the rebuy cost low to encourage the wild play. Everyone knows going in, it is a fun event and not serious poker.

When do you force lammer turn-in? What logic did you follow to decide when a proper lammer turn-in time is? Number of BBs of starting stack in a blind level? Some % of estimated play time?

 

[moose]

It just depends on how long you expect the tourney to run and when is a good time for a short break where you can go around and make sure all the lammers have been exchanged.

1-2 hours in is good. Not saying that a wild/bad player can't bust out in that time but you want to give everyone a chance to have a decent amount of play for their buyin and not go home early due to a bad suckout.

And yes, $15 with one $15 rebuy is not likely to crush anyone's dreams of early retirement but I've played tourneys where the entry fee is $100+ with a rebuy. I'm not personally interested in boosting someone's prize pool at that price. You do have to be careful where there is a wide range of financial standing in your game. Someone with a low income is going to treat a rebuy much differently than the guy who drives a BMW to your game.

But I think a lammer is a good idea in deep stacked home game events where the starting stack is 10k+ and can easily be split into two portions.

 

[swemon]

Fun story, I use the word “lammer” quite literally and have laminate lammers.. okay, maybe not that funny.

Anyway. We resorted to what @moose does and split the starting stack in two, and players can reload whenever they want during a specified period - usually the first 1-2 hours. Although the rebuy element is lost, it’s more friendly for less experienced who know exactly how much the night will cost. For the more experienced, they like the strategic element. And for the tiny minority (literally two people) will still complained there’s less money up for grabs, well, we increased the buy-in to a point where most were comfortable.

 

[doublebooyah85]

I a

A great suggestion from previous discussions around rebuys and add-ons: instead of allowing add-ons, allow people who still have chips to rebuy at the same price as people who have busted out, but they have to surrender their current stack to do so. Surrendered chips return to the bank.

This prevents the unfairness of add-ons. It's strategically correct to always take an add-on if it's offered. If everyone gets a token that's good for a rebuy, then anyone who doesn't bust out by the end of the rebuy period has wasted an opportunity to play more aggressively. If you let people who haven't used their rebuy token to add on instead, then you've harshly penalized those who did bust out by denying them their chance to add on.

By using surrender-stack-and-rebuy instead of add-on, you put everyone on an even footing whether they've busted out or not.

l also prefer this. Add ons are just a burden. Everyone is forced to do it.

We do the surrender/forfeit and it’s great.

 

[Frogzilla]

You are right, in that proper decision making would be to exchange the lammer right away so that you cover the table, the defense to that, of course is for everyone else to exchange their lammer as well. But it just doesn't happen that often. Most players appreciate the value of having a second chance.

Super high roller bowl ran this format one year, and only one player exchanged their lammer early. The rest waited until busted or the lammer period was over

The right play is to wait

 

[legonick]

Super high roller bowl ran this format one year, and only one player exchanged their lammer early. The rest waited until busted or the lammer period was over

The right play is to wait

Another reason to make it not optional....

Can you turn it in when you wake up with pocket Aces?

 

[GetUrShineBox]

Why try to make things difficult. $15 buy in for $20k in chips. $15 unlimited rebuys for first 60-90 minutes for $20k chips. $5 add on for $10k chips at the end of the rebuy period. Done and done!

 

[grantc54]

I now permanently do the rebuy (or add on if unused) token that is prepaid for in buyin. This appeases the crowd that wants to be able to rebuy if they bust early and the "i hate rebuys aa it gives those with more $ an advatage" crowd.

It's worked really well for me and pretty much guarantees everyone gets at least 2-2.5 hours of poker in.

I get very little if any complaints about this system wheras i get several complaints a game with either paid rebuy or no rebuy options.

 

[trigs]

Another reason to make it not optional....

Can you turn it in when you wake up with pocket Aces?

I think you're joking, but no you obviously can't turn in the lammer for chips in the middle of a hand. Any time in between hands is okay though.

 

[k9dr]

I am running a T25K bounty tournament tonight with a $60 buy in - $50 to the prize pool and a $10 bounty. There will be one rebuy available per player up until the first break. I want to offer an add on at the break too. Blind levels after the break will be 250/500. I was thinking about a $20 add on for T10K additional in chips. Does that sound reasonable ?

 

[Frogzilla]

That’s much more reasonable than every add-on structure I’ve played. Usually they are so ridiculously +EV that it’s a penalty to anyone playing aggressive and risking their stack (as that first bullet might not get the profitable add-on). Should be slightly EV overall but chip leaders would be at best indifferent to add-on and maybe lose a little.

 

[k9dr]

Should a player that busts on the last hand before the break be allowed to rebuy and add on ?

 

[DoubleEagle]

Should a player that busts on the last hand before the break be allowed to rebuy and add on ?

Yes.