Rhodeman77’s second hand from Thursday night (1 Viewer)

[Rhodeman77]

This is the second hand I want to discuss.

It is also a Hold’em hand. Though it takes place between 3-4am. At midnight the games switches from round by round to dealers choice and becomes $5/5 blinds. Almost everyone chooses PLO but the random Hold’em hand happens.

We are 6 handed at this point.

The Laywer ($800) is on the button and has a $10 straddle on.

Hero ($1500) is in the SB and is first to act with

Dustin ($1400) is the BB

Walt ($2000) is UTG

Fireman ($180) is HJ —he just lost his stack when he and the cop both flopped broadway and got it all in on the flop. Fireman was on a freeroll with nut heart flush draw. But the cop went runner runner for a spade flush to crush his soul!

The Cop ($2800) is in the CO

What is our plan?

See first post for notes on each player.

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/rhodeman77’s-interesting-hands-of-the-week.26071/

 

[kk405]

I never limp-raise with JJ. If I am first to open, I always raise with JJ, and none of that stupid 20xBB because ‘there are only two ways to play Jacks and both are wrong’. As much as they have a bad reputation, I think it’s a great big pair, and yes, they are somewhat difficult to play at times, but I think they are easier to play than QQ (personal opinion).

Raise the normal (whatever it is at this particular time of the morning) ... to $40-$50.

 

[v1pe]

Open $40 or $50 depending on the standard raise you've been doing. I prefer 4x in early position plus limpers, which would be $50 in this case.

I'm not a big fan of a limp raise strategy, except occasionally with AA or KK sparingly. You want to thin the field with your bet and get into a heads up or three way pot and hope to flop an over pair.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Agreed with both posts above. Standard-sized raise over the straddle, whatever that happens to be. Probably $40 is good.

As to the plan, it's jacks. This hand plays best when you get it heads-up and undercards come or you flop a set, but even then, it's not the greatest, and you're out of position here. Playing 150 BB effective against most opponents, there's no reason to plan to die on this hill. Unless you catch a monster or get HU against a very predictable player, play with an eye toward pot control.

 

[detroitdad]

I'm in the 40-50 bet range.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Any other opinions before I post the preflop action?

 

[Rhodeman77]

So hero goes against the popular opinion and plans on limp raising.

Thinking being that if hero makes it $40 to go he is likely to get called in at least 3 spots and be in the worst position as well. If going for the limp raise hero has a strong chance of taking the pot down preflop or be heads up with a decent amount of dead money in the pot.

So hero limps for the $10, Dustin folds, Walt raises to $50. The Fireman shoves all in for $130 and it folds back to Hero.

What do we do now? All 3 options have merit.

Fold— we only have $10 invested in the pot, we are out of position (probably the best option).

Call— weakest of the options I think. Almost always gets Walt to come along and he may even think hero is pretty weak and put in another raise.

Raise— we hopefully isolate The Fireman (who is on life tilt) with some bonus dead money from Walt. Downside is if Walt calls or even worse raises we are almost never ahead (flipping at best) and have now blown up the pot and are out of position for the rest of the hand.

What is Hero’s play?

 

[namsupak]

Raise with proper sizing to get Walt out. I can't remember what you said in a previous post about walt's style, but I like a raise to about 350 or 400.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Raise with proper sizing to get Walt out. I can't remember what you said in a previous post about walt's style, but I like a raise to about 350 or 400.

Notes on Walt:

Great guy everyone wants at there table. Money doesn’t really mean anything to him. He never puts his stack on lockdown. I have seen him go from $2k to broke in one orbit to back up to $2500 by the next orbit. He will straddle almost every hand to try to induce others to do it as well. He is a successful small business owner so the swings in money aren’t important to him. He loves the action. I have almost never seen him fold to a 3 bet if he entered the pot already. To say he hates folding until he absolutely has to is an understatement. Very wide range for sure!!! Decent hand reading ability. Very good short handed player as he is very aggressive and picks up lots of decent sized pot by firing lots of bullets when it is checked to him. Loses a lot when he tries it at a full table as there is usually someone trapping. He is usually stuck most of the night to then make a huge comeback once we get to 5-6 handed each week.

 

[kk405]

So hero goes against the popular opinion and plans on limp raising.

Thinking being that if hero makes it $40 to go he is likely to get called in at least 3 spots and be in the worst position as well. If going for the limp raise hero has a strong chance of taking the pot down preflop or be heads up with a decent amount of dead money in the pot.

So hero limps for the $10, Dustin folds, Walt raises to $50. The Fireman shoves all in for $130 and it folds back to Hero.

What do we do now? All 3 options have merit.

Fold— we only have $10 invested in the pot, we are out of position (probably the best option).

Call— weakest of the options I think. Almost always gets Walt to come along and he may even think hero is pretty weak and put in another raise.

Raise— we hopefully isolate The Fireman (who is on life tilt) with some bonus dead money from Walt. Downside is if Walt calls or even worse raises we are almost never ahead (flipping at best) and have now blown up the pot and are out of position for the rest of the hand.

What is Hero’s play?

Not being result-oriented, but this is why I don't like limp-raising with JJs. It is very difficult to know where you are if you get called, and by the way, if there was a raise, and three callers, the raise would be very difficult to size correctly: do you make it $400? And if you had raised, Walt would have likely 3-bet to $150, fireman goes all-in for less, and you can now flat-call Walt's 3-bet, even out of position.

As played, I am flat-calling the $130 and will re-asses depending on Walt's move. If Walt raises, I am folding ($130 invested), and if he flats, we have a relatively strong read on his range. On a low flop, I would check-raise and get all the money in faster than he can say happy New Year.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Not being result-oriented, but this is why I don't like limp-raising with JJs. It is very difficult to know where you are if you get called, and by the way, if there was a raise, and three callers, the raise would be very difficult to size correctly: do you make it $400?.

If it had gone raise by Walt to $50 and 3 callers I would have changed my plan to set mine with JJ and just called the $50 as well. My hand strength would be well disguised as well on a ragged flop as well like 824 where I could check raise for value.

 

[DrStrange]

Deep stacks + bad position leads to reverse implied odds. In short, a RIO risk. If this hand were being played as a $1/$2 hand or even $2/$5, hero would have reason to be especially concerned with the risk. However the blinds are $5/$5 and there is a $10 straddle, the stacks are much shallower than they might seem. Toss in some really short stacks - $180 is only 18"bb" deep - and we find Hero could be playing this as an ABC short stacked hand.

My plan suggestion. Hero limps hoping to set mine. If there is aggression, Hero should consider limp / folding vs the dangerous players (a passive guy playing deep and 3-betting is dangerous) and limp raising vs the crazy folk. Note that hero is getting into a high variance situation if he doesn't get a limped preflop pot.

Now that we see a raise and a three-bet jam - lets consider the situation.

The 3-bet is from "The Fireman— weak tight passive player. Always looking for someone else to bet his made hands instead of betting them himself. When he does bet it is usually a bluff or shove his short stack all-in preflop." Maybe he is on tilt, maybe not. Hero should not count on getting any better equity over this guy's range than 55/45 (not that sometimes Hero is 80/20 but the overall range is barely better than even money. Basically I recommend that Hero mostly ignore the main pot + fireman - Hero is getting $25 to $50 EV if he successfully isolates (3 - 5 bb). A nice minor prize, but nothing to get excited about.

The focus should be on " Walt. Great guy everyone wants at there table. Money doesn’t really mean anything to him. He never puts his stack on lockdown. I have seen him go from $2k to broke in one orbit to back up to $2500 by the next orbit. He will straddle almost every hand to try to induce others to do it as well. He is a successful small business owner so the swings in money aren’t important to him. He loves the action. I have almost never seen him fold to a 3 bet if he entered the pot already. To say he hates folding until he absolutely has to is an understatement. Very wide range for sure!!! Decent hand reading ability. Very good short handed player as he is very aggressive and picks up lots of decent sized pot by firing lots of bullets when it is checked to him. Loses a lot when he tries it at a full table as there is usually someone trapping. He is usually stuck most of the night to then make a huge comeback once we get to 5-6 handed each week."

So Walt has Hero covered plus Walt has position. Walt is aggressive and will put Hero to the test. Walt reads hands well. Walt looks like he is ahead for the night. The hand is 150bb effective and at the moment Walt has 5bb invested.

My first blush is to fold fearing the RIO risks. Walt might be a weak spot LAGtard on nights when he is losing, but it sounds like he has ample skills when things start out good for him. Hero is representing a big hand - commonly AA or KK when he limps / 4-bets preflop. I think Walt could play the hand relatively accurately even though he hates to fold. Maybe Walt plays mid-pairs even after Hero 4-bets, maybe not. I worry that Hero ends up getting a lot of folds which means he wins the "3-5 bb minor prize" or Hero gets into a huge pot either racing or dominated - but out of position no matter what (unless he jams preflop or on the flop ).

So what is Hero's plan if he 4-bets? The pot is $180 + $180 + $50 +5 = $415 once hero catches up with $1,320 left behind. A 3x overbet pre-flop jam seems like a good way to play only vs the tip top range from Walt. If Hero makes a "normal" 4-bet, it leaves him with a single pot sized bet post flop. When does Hero give up post flop, if ever? And how well can Walt figure that out before he puts another chip in the pot?

And is Hero's plan to limp / 4-bet / fold to a jam by Walt?

I would be willing to dance with a crazy man or someone who folds anything but AA / KK / QQ? to the 4-bet. I worry that Hero has a situation where he is playing a somewhat competent player in a bad (for hero) hand. Let's not do this.

I fold -=- DrStrange

 

[Rhodeman77]

Great analysis as usual @DrStrange. I should have mentioned in the OP that both Hero, Walt, and Fireman are all stuck so far for the evening. Walt is in the game for ~$3k while Hero is in for $2100 and Fireman is about $2500 invested.

So all us are sucking sewer water as Walt likes to say lol.

Hero’s first thought was to fold, second thought was to fold but then Hero starts leveling himself (something he does on occasion).

Hero figures Walt is opening very wide here: Any A, any 2 broadway cards, any pocket pair, any suited connector down to 76, and even a bunch of worse cards as well.

Fireman knows this as well and is on tilt after the huge suckout gat just happened to him. He also knows Walt hates to fold so if he shoves with any pocket pair, any A or any 2 broadway cards he is well ahead of Walt’s range to get a double up.

So now Hero is thinking along those lines when he decides to make what amounts to a minraise back to Walt.

Hero makes it $300 to go, hoping to get heads up with the Fireman and also being able to fold if Walt jams it in now.

Hero also thinks this looks very strong, like what AA would do to get extra money into the side pot.

Walt takes just a few seconds and calls.

Flop is not very favorable this time for our Hero:



Total pot is $795
$555 of that in the main
$240 in the side pot

Hero checks after a little while of contemplating if he should bluff jam.

Walt bets $250 eventually and Hero folds.

Walt tables KK, the turn is a a 10 filling him up and the Fireman much then not showing his hand.

After the hand the rest of the table asked Walt why he didn’t reraise me again preflop and he was worried I had AA, he was still a little worried I had it on the flop too but not as much. Part of the reason he only bet $250, though he is never folding a set of Kings.

Next hand will be a PLO hand!!

 

[FDLmold]

These are starting to be like Martino’s hands where we lose all of them. Get us a winner!

 

[Rhodeman77]

These are starting to be like Martino’s hands where we lose all of them. Get us a winner!

It was a rough week for me!! I was in deeper than I had been in any game up to this point. I won some nice pots, but most of them didn’t require any interesting decisions. Like flipping the nut flush bs the King high flush and getting paid on all 3 streets.

As I kept losing and re-buying I was thinking to myself this was a rough week to start posting hands!!

 

[kk405]

It was a rough week for me!! I was in deeper than I had been in any game up to this point. I won some nice pots, but most of them didn’t require any interesting decisions. Like flipping the nut flush bs the King high flush and getting paid on all 3 streets.

As I kept losing and re-buying I was thinking to myself this was a rough week to start posting hands!!

There is an issue with playing a bigger-than-normal game. Sometimes we are out of our comfort zones. Sometimes it has to do with how many buy-ins do we have in our pockets or how deep do we want to be extended on the sheet. All of these can make our decision-making process sub optimal. Many times I have found myself in games far bigger that I should have played and made wrong decisions pre-flop, on the flop and on every street because of the size of the game relative to my comfort level. Regardless, I think most of the time (not always) there are good decisions that are almost universal and need to be made, regardless of the stakes. Folding JJs pre-flop to a $100-$150 bet, when players are $1500+ deep is nearly always wrong.

As I said before, I am never limp-raising with JJs. And if I raise-called for $150ish, I am check-folding the AK10 flop. period. And I am stacking off against an aggro player, who happens to have KK this time (but not usually), on a 10 high flop. If I give him action in this spot, I am certain I will get lots of action from him when I am ahead.

I think it's highly important to recognize that loose, aggro, non-pro, recreational players, playing $2/$5 and higher, play very differently than normal grinders.

 

[Lemonzest]

Late to the party but here is my 2c.

I really dislike limp raising pre with JJ because you are giving away too much value (ie potentially letting people see a cheap flop).

From small blind I think Hero should make a larger than normal raise. Something that makes the table raise their eyebrows a bit. Reason being Hero actually really does not want to see a flop and play the rest of the hand OOP. Make a pretty big raise pre to at worst end up heads up. Also when you do get re raised pre flop it allows you to see more clearly what is happening.

As played you over-repped your hand which in turn didn't allow you to accurately read what Villain had.

Anyway hope your run good from here on out.