Tourney Starting stack breakdown (1 Viewer)

[mummel]

I'm curious for T10,000.

I've settled on a 12-12-3-7 starting stack, but any reason not to go 12-12-9-4 for, you know, CHIPS!?

 

[mooremo]

I have used 12-12-5-6

 

[mummel]

I'm curious for T10,000.

I've settled on a 12-12-3-7 starting stack, but any reason not to go 12-12-9-4 for, you know, CHIPS!?

The other reason I like this idea is because of the perceived value of the chips. For example, less $500s than $25s and $100s, and less $1000s than $500s etc. Seems to flow nicely.

But I know the $1000 is the workhorse. Will having 30 less $1000 chips on the table at the start complicate betting later on (i.e. when do the $1000 chips really kick in?).

 

[mummel]

So I took a spreadsheet and used Blind Valet to calculate a T10,000 game's blind structure.

I then played around and assumed a 2.5X BB bet pre-flop to get some idea for how many chips of each denom would be used at different levels.

The ratio came out as 9-9-4-14, which is really interesting, because it's similar to what the starting stack looks like, except for the $1000 chips.

Looking at this, wont a 12-12-3-7 starting stack be light on the $1000 chips? Instead of using the $5000 chip for rebuys, why not use the $1000s?

Or is it because there are less people in the game say 2 hours in that there are enough $1000 chips to go around?

 

[BGinGA]

So I took a spreadsheet and used Blind Valet to calculate a T10,000 game's blind structure.

I then played around and assumed a 2.5X BB bet pre-flop to get some idea for how many chips of each denom would be used at different levels.

The ratio came out as 9-9-4-14, which is really interesting, because it's similar to what the starting stack looks like, except for the $1000 chips.

Looking at this, wont a 12-12-3-7 starting stack be light on the $1000 chips? Instead of using the $5000 chip for rebuys, why not use the $1000s?

Or is it because there are less people in the game say 2 hours in that there are enough $1000 chips to go around?

As you color-up the T25/T100 chips (with T1000s), the number of workhorse T1000 chips in play will increase. Plus as you noted, as the field size gets smaller (as players get eliminated), the average number of T1000 chips per player/stack will increase. Re-buys typically do not play a significant role in stack structure, and using T5000 chips for re-buys helps get a reasonable amount of those chips in play for the end game.

As you noted in your experiment, T500 chips have limited utility when a T1000 chip is also used, and is the primary reason not as many are needed. A set that uses 25-100-500-2000 denominations will require many more T500s than one that uses T1000 chips. Typical T10000 stack breakdowns for such set would be 12/12/9/2 (using T2000 chips for color-ups) or 12/12/5/3 (using T500 chips for color-ups).

The optimum total number of chips in play on the table at or near the tournament end (three-handed and heads-up) is somewhere between 80-160, with the sweet spot around 120 total (with just two or three denominations total). Players pushing around more than 3 or 4 barrels of chips can get pretty inefficient, for both the players and the dealer. I try to never have more than 200 chips in play at tournament end if possible. Massive stacks look great on TV but they don't really work well in practice.

 

[BGinGA]

Also worth noting that your experiment yielded a 9-9-4-14 stack ratio. That is one of the reasons I use 12/12/5/6 for starting stacks, and not 12/12/3/7 (too few T500s) or 8/8/6/6 (too few T25s and T100s). Those latter stacks work okay in larger tournaments with multiple tables, but 12/12/5/6 works better for single- or 2-table events.

 

[mummel]

Also worth noting that your experiment yielded a 9-9-4-14 stack ratio. That is one of the reasons I use 12/12/5/6 for starting stacks, and not 12/12/3/7 (too few T500s) or 8/8/6/6 (too few T25s and T100s). Those latter stacks work okay in larger tournaments with multiple tables, but 12/12/5/6 works better for single- or 2-table events.

This is perfect info generated from first hand experience. I love this forum.

So with 12/12/5/6, what would you use for the rebuy stacks?

 

[slisk250]

This is perfect info generated from first hand experience. I love this forum.

So with 12/12/5/6, what would you use for the rebuy stacks?

I'd have T5000 chips ready. 2 X 5000

 

[BGinGA]

^ this

using T5000 chips for re-buys helps get a reasonable amount of those chips in play for the end game.

 

[mummel]

^ this

I was think about the rebuys being:

1 X $5000
5 X $1000

 

[BGinGA]

That works, too.

 

[Marius L]

I was think about the rebuys being:

1 X $5000
5 X $1000

You could also do first couple of rebuys with 1x 5000 + 5x 1000, then the later rebuys with only 2x 5000, depending on how many 1000s you have left and amount of rebuys.

 

[beyondtilt]

i've always started at 20k for $20 and used 8,8,8,5,2 and color up as time goes by.

 

[mummel]

Guys I also see a T10,000 starting stack with 50/100 blinds is pretty common (100X BBs). What would be the advantage or disadvantage of starting the tourney with a deeper stack (say 200X BBs). What affect would that have on the game?

 

[justsomedude]

I have used 12-12-5-6

This is what I use for my T10,000. It's definitely my favorite breakdown for T10k.

I also start my tourneys with a 20min 25/50 round as a "warm up."

 

[BGinGA]

Guys I also see a T10,000 starting stack with 50/100 blinds is pretty common (100X BBs). What would be the advantage or disadvantage of starting the tourney with a deeper stack (say 200X BBs). What affect would that have on the game?

Much prefer 200BB+ over anything less, although I did once run a 75BB tourney series that was quite successful (T7500, 50/100 L1 blinds).

Deeper stacks allow players to expand their range and actually play meaningful poker for a longer period of time (and even suffer the occasional bad beat) without quickly finding themselves in shove mode. It's a more enjoyable experience, imo. The actual structure used has a lot to do with it, as well -- no sense in starting with twice the BB if you're gonna cut it in half with the first blind increase. A smooth blinds progression is a more important variable than the number of BBs in the starting stacks.

 

[mummel]

According to Blind Valet, this is what a T10,000 tourney's blinds with 200 BB starting stacks looks like. Is this the type of blind progression you're talking about?

Time SB BB Ante
1 20 min 25 50 0-
2 20 min 50 100 0-
3 20 min 75 150 0-
4 20 min 100 200 0-
5 20 min 150 300 0-
6 20 min 200 400 0-
7 20 min 250 500 0-
8 20 min 300 600 0-
9 20 min 400 800 0-
10 20 min 500 1000 0-
11 20 min 600 1200 0-
12 20 min 800 1600 0-
13 20 min 1000 2000 0-
14 20 min 1200 2400 0-
15 20 min 1500 3000 0-
16 20 min 2000 4000 0-
17 20 min 3000 6000 0-
18 20 min 4000 8000 0-
19 20 min 5000 10000

 

[mummel]

BGinGA - whats your ultimate optimal tourney structure? Do you have a template I can look at?

Variables I'm curious about:

-starting stack size in BBs (200?)
-given the choice, T10,000 or T2,000, or whats your best pick?
-tournament duration
-number of players
-blind levels in minutes
-starting blinds and structure throughout the tournament
-starting stack denom breakdown (you mentioned 12/12/5/6)

TY!

 

[BGinGA]

According to Blind Valet, this is what a T10,000 tourney's blinds with 200 BB starting stacks looks like. Is this the type of blind progression you're talking about?

Time SB BB Ante
1 20 min 25 50 0-
2 20 min 50 100 0-
3 20 min 75 150 0-
4 20 min 100 200 0-
5 20 min 150 300 0-
6 20 min 200 400 0-
7 20 min 250 500 0-
8 20 min 300 600 0-
9 20 min 400 800 0-
10 20 min 500 1000 0-
11 20 min 600 1200 0-
12 20 min 800 1600 0-
13 20 min 1000 2000 0-
14 20 min 1200 2400 0-
15 20 min 1500 3000 0-
16 20 min 2000 4000 0-
17 20 min 3000 6000 0-
18 20 min 4000 8000 0-
19 20 min 5000 10000

^ Does not meet with BGinGA blind structure gold standard approval. Why, you ask?

• 100% increase in blinds from L1 to L2 (100% increases are to be avoided at all times, unless ~every~ blind increase is 100%)
• Levels 7 and 10 are unnecessary, and at only 25% increases from previous levels, are inconsistent with the established 33%-50% range of other increases
• 20% increase from L10 to L11 is too small, considering the range of other increases
• 20% increase from L13 to L14 is too small, considering the range of other increases

Nothing inherently wrong with 25% (or even 20%) increases, so long as they are part of a structure that uses consistent ranges for increases across the duration of the event. An occasional 25% jump may be necessary in an otherwise 33%-50% range to transition from using different chip denominations. But a range of 20% to 50% varies too widely, not to mention the horrid 100% jump after L1. The key to a good structure is consistency.

 

[mummel]

Yeah I guess at least in the initial rounds, the less players that bust, the more fun everyone will have. I have allocated chips for rebuys if players bust out early, but my gut says accelerating the blinds later on once 3-4 people are out for the evening probably makes more sense vs doubling the blinds from L1 to L2.

But on the flip side, if people bust out and rebuy, the pot grows!

I guess Blind Valet isn't perfect, but the levels can easily be edited. Do you have a spreadsheet or how do you optimize your tournaments?

 

[BGinGA]

Here are the changes I would make to that BV 200BB structure:

Lv SB BB
L1 25 50
L2 25 75
L3 50 100
L4 75 150
L5 100 200
L6 150 300
~remove T25 chips
L7 200 400
L8 300 600
L9 400 800
L10 600 1200
L11 800 1600
L12 1200 2400
~remove T100 chips
L13 1500 3000
L14 2000 4000
L15 3000 6000
L16 4000 8000
L17 5000 10000
L18 7500 15000
~remove T500/T1000 chips
L19 10000 20000
L20 15000 30000
L21 20000 40000
L22 30000 60000
L23 40000 80000
~remove T5000 chips
L24 50000 100000
L25 75000 150000
L26 100000 200000
L27 150000 300000
~remove T25000 chips
L28 200000 400000
L29 300000 600000
L30 400000 800000
L31 600000 1200000
L32 800000 1600000

Or start with L3 and T20000 stacks.

 

[mummel]

Ah I see you consistently rotate between 50% and 33% BB increases. How many minutes per level?

 

[BGinGA]

BGinGA - whats your ultimate optimal tourney structure? Do you have a template I can look at?

Variables I'm curious about:

-starting stack size in BBs (200?)
-given the choice, T10,000 or T2,000, or whats your best pick?
-tournament duration
-number of players
-blind levels in minutes
-starting blinds and structure throughout the tournament
-starting stack denom breakdown (you mentioned 12/12/5/6)

TY!

There are no easy or pat answers to those questions. A lot has to do with the intent of the tournament and/or the target audience, and it is often dictated by the number of players and/or the available time.

 

[BGinGA]

Ah I see you consistently rotate between 50% and 33% BB increases. How many minutes per level?

The blind times can be set to meet a variety of desired tournament lengths. How long do you want it to last?

 

[Payback]

BG what if you were going to add in antes to that structure?

 

[mummel]

My hope was to do tourneys on weekday nights and cash games on weekends, so I'm thinking 4 hours for the tourneys? Would this work? Whats your optimal tourney time?

 

[justsomedude]

My hope was to do tourneys on weekday nights and cash games on weekends, so I'm thinking 4 hours for the tourneys? Would this work? Whats your optimal tourney time?

This is my setup for my Friday night games. We start at 6:30 and are usually done by 11pm, with 16-19 original buyins and 5-6 rebuys. I cutoff rebuys at the first break. No addons.

The 6:30-11pm estimate includes time for breaks, and a very long (15-20min) first break after the pizza arrives. If we have three tables (22+ players), it will run closer to 1am. You can adjust the blind level duration to maximize play, but I wouldn't drop below 20min. It just gets silly at that point. Even 20 min. levels can become a shovefest. 25 min. is really the lowest you should go (in my opinion).

*green highlight is projected end.

 

[mummel]

This is my setup for my Friday night games. We start at 6:30 and are usually done by 11pm, with 16-19 original buyins and 5-6 rebuys. I cutoff rebuys at the first break. No addons.

The 6:30-11pm estimate includes time for breaks, and a very long (15-20min) first break after the pizza arrives. If we have three tables (22+ players), it will run closer to 1am. You can adjust the blind level duration to maximize play, but I wouldn't drop below 20min. It just gets silly at that point. Even 20 min. levels can become a shovefest. 25 min. is really the lowest you should go (in my opinion).

View attachment 40194
*green highlight is projected end.

Nice table thanks. Looking at your data, it appears I will need 15 rounds to end the game if you adjust for BGinGA's L1 > L2 blind change (50 to 75 vs 50 to 100)

And if you say 25mins is a decent level time, then I need 6 hours 15 mins of back to back game play (without breaks) to end the tournament. Thats impossible for a week night.

So some adjustments are needed. 20min levels allow for a 5 hour tourney with no breaks. We're getting closer. If I then need to adjust for bigger blind jumps, where were you tag them on? End game?

 

[BGinGA]

My hope was to do tourneys on weekday nights and cash games on weekends, so I'm thinking 4 hours for the tourneys? Would this work? Whats your optimal tourney time?

Nice table thanks. Looking at your data, it appears I will need 15 rounds to end the game if you adjust for BGinGA's L1 > L2 blind change (50 to 75 vs 50 to 100)

20min levels allow for a 5 hour tourney with no breaks. We're getting closer. If I then need to adjust for bigger blind jumps, where were you tag them on? End game?

Just run it with 15-minute levels. Should finish in 4 hours including breaks.

 

[BGinGA]

BG what if you were going to add in antes to that structure?

My ante structures are usually more relaxed, since the antes themselves promote more action, making smaller blind increases possible within the same overall time frame. My typical ante amounts are between 1/10th and 1/8th of the big blind size (so roughly about a full BB for a full table). It usually turns the 'standard' 3x pre-flop raise into a 4x raise.

I also have a great antes-only structure, which is very popular with the locals here.