Tourney Structure for re-buy/add-on with Bounty chip (1 Viewer)

[trivialpiper]

So I'm trying to spice up my home game and provide some additional opportunity for players to win some cash without having to place in the money. This has historically been a very simple $20 buy-in with no re-buys/add-ons game. I'd like to bump it up to a $40 buy-in for a $12K starting stack with blinds starting at 25/50. I would also like to use a $20 bounty chip, along with one rebuy through the first break, and an add-on at level 5. I would like the re-buy/add-on to be an additional $40 with a $20 add-on but I'n not sure how that works with the bounty chip, as anyone re-buying would get another bounty chip while anyone adding on just gets the additional chips. Any advice on how to make this work would be greatly appreciated!

Here is a summary of my structure:

6-8 players (paying top two if 6 or 7, top three if 8)
T12K starting stacks
$40 buy-in (including $20 bounty)
$40 re-buy through level 5 for $6K in chips
$20 add-on at level 5 for $6K in chips

1. 25/50 20 min
2. 50/100 20 min
3. 75/150 15 min
4. 100/200 15 min
5. 150/300 15 min
5 min break, color up T25 - End of re-buy period, optional add-on
6. 200/400 15 min
7. 300/600 15 min
8. 400/800 15 min
9. 500/1000 15 min
10. 600/1200 15 min
11. 800/1600 15 min
5 min break, color up T100
12. 1000/2000 15 min
13. 1500/3000 10 min
14. 2000/4000 10 min
15. 2500/5000 10 min
5 min break, color up T500
16. 3000/6000 10 min
17. 4000/8000 5 min
18. 5000/10000 5 min (projected EOT)
19. 6000/12000 5 min
20. 8000/16000 5 min
21. 10000/20000 5 min

Edited based on advice from @k9dr .....thanks!

 

[fieldsy]

I'm not sure why the rebuy would be full price for a half stack. If you're going to allow rebuys, I think just have rebuys. 12k new chips and a new bounty chip. I've never played a tournament with add-ons, so I defer to others more experienced there, but it strikes me as odd to have an add-on in a bounty tournament. To me, that seems like it would create an incentive to cling to a tiny stack in level 5 rather than get the chips in and give up the bounty.

As for the actual blind structure, I'm not sure whether you're looking to modify the structure to limit time after adding rebuys to the tournament. The progression looks fine, though I would personally skip the 25/50 level unless your group really wants it. I would also say you can add antes/big blind ante, but I wouldn't upset the apple cart all at once. If you've been playing this game for a long time with a no-ante structure, your players may not like that you are doubling the buying, adding rebuys and bounties. Throw in antes and that's a lot of change all at once.

 

[trivialpiper]

Thanks for the feedback. The rationale on the rebuy price is that you are paying $20 for another buy-in (half the original) plus $20 for another bounty chip. If you are adding on, then it's only $20 for half the stack with no additional bounty. I feel like if I do a do rebuys/add-ons for the full starting stack, the game will go a lot longer.

 

[fieldsy]

Thanks for the feedback. The rationale on the rebuy price is that you are paying $20 for another buy-in (half the original) plus $20 for another bounty chip. If you are adding on, then it's only $20 for half the stack with no additional bounty. I feel like if I do a do rebuys/add-ons for the full starting stack, the game will go a lot longer.

I guess I am looking at the rebuy buy-in versus the initial buy-in, not versus the add-on, but you're pointing out that the price of the add-on is skewed too. The initial buy-in is effectively $20 for a full stack and $20 for a bounty chip. By the same per-chip math, if you want to do half-stacks, I would think do a $10 add-on and a $30 rebuy ($10 for half stack + $20 bounty chip), although I still think that skews the value of bounties because someone will now get a $20 bounty for knocking out a player who only got half of a starting stack.

As for length of the tournament, I don't think full stacks versus half stacks will make much of difference. The existence of rebuys at all will some difference as compared to a freezeout (although you're ending rebuys at a point where a starting stack would still have 30 BBs, so you may not lot of them). If you're 8-handed and someone busts and rebuys, it makes about 6% difference to the total number of chips in play if you issue a full stack versus a half stack on the rebuy.

At the same time, I guess my main point here is that your planned rebuy and add-on amounts will (or at least should) discourage rebuys and add-ons. That might very well be the intention, or you want to extract money from the -EV players who you know will take the gamble. Those are certainly fine objectives, I just want to make sure that's really what you intend.

 

[trivialpiper]

Interesting. Thanks for the additional analysis! I would prefer that players add-on and not re-buy, as I think the re-buy encourages loose play. Just my opinion.

 

[BGinGA]

A few random thoughts:

Bounty tournaments typically fall into one of two categories: large-amount bounties, usually costing 50% to 100% of the entry fee (examples - $100 buy-in with a $50 to $100 bounty, or $20 buy-in with a $10 to $20 bounty), or small-amount bounties, where the bounty cost is usually 10% to 25% of the entry fee (examples -- $80 buy-in with a $20 bounty, $100 total, or $20 buy-in with a $5 bounty. The two types of bounty events play out quite differently.

Having bounty chips that are worth a large percentage of the buy-in cost (100%, in this case) tend to really tighten up play, and as a result, almost completely shutting down re-buys in the event. For that reason, most large-amount bounty tournaments don't offer re-buys. Players with large stacks will take extra risks calling an all-in player (who will be playing tighter), because of the relatively large payout awarded to busting out a player.

This is much less common in small-amount bounty tournaments. Play is generally much looser, much more like a non-bounty tournament. There will still be people angling to collect bounties when somebody is all-in, but the big monetary payoff isn't there to seriously affect/alter play.

Bounty chips can be used one of three ways: either (a) a player forfeits his bounty chip when eliminated from the tournament (and therefore only one bounty chip is issued per player, regardless if there are re-buys or not), or (b) a player forfeits his bounty chip when busted, and is forced to buy another bounty chip if he re-buys, or (c) a player forfeits his bounty chip when busted and has the option to buy another if he re-buys (but must purchase another bounty chip with his re-buy in order to collect any bounties from players he may bust going forward).

Limited re-buys (one per player, for example) offer players some protection from bad beats and cooler hands. Provided the buy-in and re-buy costs are not trivial (a super-low $5 entry, for example), re-buys have very little real impact on play, and a typical re-buy rate with a good blind structure is usually in the 20%-33% range, and often less.

Add-ons in a tournament provide very little in the way of strategic value. If being used to increase stack sizes or to generate more money in the prize pool, a better approach is to simply increase the starting stack size, or increase the initial buy-in amount. Any perceived value of purchasing an add-on an hour or more into the tournament is almost totally artificial. The best use of add-ons is in charity events, where the overall goal of the tournament is to maximize the total amount if money spent by the participants (and they do so willingly, knowing that much of the money is going to a good cause).


To the OP:

If wanting to spice up your $20 tournament, I'd recommend initially making just two changes:

• $25 buy-in, which includes a $5 bounty chip
• $20 re-buy for a full starting stack, limited to one per player

Players lose their bounty chip only when completely eliminated from the event. Players do not need to be busted to re-buy, but must forfeit any chips when re-buying a full stack.

That last rule eliminates situations where a player loses a big hand decimating their stack, and then subsequently repeatedly shoves all-in to either double-up or bust out so they can re-buy. Allowing them to re-buy when still having a few chips causes much less disruption to the normal play of the event.

 

[trivialpiper]

A few random thoughts:

To the OP:

If wanting to spice up your $20 tournament, I'd recommend initially making just two changes:

• $25 buy-in, which includes a $5 bounty chip
• $20 re-buy for a full starting stack, limited to one per player

Players lose their bounty chip only when completely eliminated from the event. Players do not need to be busted to re-buy, but must forfeit any chips when re-buying a full stack.

That last rule eliminates situations where a player loses a big hand decimating their stack, and then subsequently repeatedly shoves all-in to either double-up or bust out so they can re-buy. Allowing them to re-buy when still having a few chips causes much less disruption to the normal play of the event.

THANK YOU...I like this structure, although I may still try a bigger buy-in and bounty chip, but eliminate the add-on. It's not like my group can't afford the extra $$, it's just that none of us had given it any thought to increase the stakes. Thanks!

EDIT: One more question.....how do the re-buys generally get allocated to the winners, whether paying top two or three?

 

[BGinGA]

Re-buys just get added to the prize pool, and distributed according to your pre-announced payout plan: 100% (4-5 players), 65%/35% (6-7 players), 55%/30%/15% (8+ players), or whatever percentages you are using.