Tourney T25 Tourney Setup Help (2 Viewers)

[CraftyCat05]

Hey everyone! I'm new to this poker and chipping world, and I'm excited to get even more into it.

I've done some research over the past couple of weeks on both tournament setups and poker chips using previous guides and threads on here, and some YouTube videos (Chris Manzoni, One2ManyHobbies - and man do I feel that channel name, and Hobbyphillic). I got some samples, and I believe I've landed on the Majestic chips. I and my buddies love the feel of them! Personally, I really like the colors of the tournament denominations, even compared to the Royals, but I digress.

Currently, we've got a group of about 12 players (with about 8-10 showing up each week), but we're looking to expand to about 20 players in the group. I've decided on doing the common T25 chip setup, with a 10k starting stack, with the possibility of a 20k starting stack as well by adding in 2 T5K chips. We've also talked about adding bounties at some point, too. Here's the breakdown I got so far:

175 x T25
175 x T100
125 x T500
200 x T1000
75 x T5000
750 Chips in Total

I'd be happy to streamline the chip amounts as per y'all's advice. With the current breakdown and some maybe questionable math, I figure I can run a max of 14 players with a 12/12/5/6 starting stack. We also plan on allowing for a 2k "on time" bonus and this starting stack can allow for 14 of those. Taking from One2ManyHobbies, I'd also like to offer rebuys (1 maximum before the first dinner break) in a 1x5k, 4x1k, and 2x500 configuration. This would allow for a maximum of 15 rebuys, so plenty of them to go around. There would also be plenty of the T1000 and T5000 chips for add-ons, coloring up, etc. I plan on using the chip race method as shown by West Coast Dealing School to color up our chips.

This setup (I believe) would run very comfortably with the 750 chips.

Any more than 14 players would require an 8/8/4/7 starting stack. This would support a maximum of 20 players on two tables. I would have enough leftover chips to supply a maximum of 15 rebuys again, however, this doesn't factor in saving T1000s for coloring up, the "on time" bonuses, and a possible 5k add-on. I doubt 15 rebuys would be used, especially if we're limiting them to just one per player in each tournament. I believe the 750 chips in the current breakdown would work for most situations, even with the maximum of 20 players.

In changing the breakdown and total chip count, I'd like to still be able to use these fundamental parts of our game (the larger chip amount starting stacks, 20 max players, rebuys w/o having to make too much change, add-ons, etc.) I'd really like this set to be able to last me, our current group/game, and beyond for any tournaments in the foreseeable future.

Blinds! I plan on starting out with 20-minute levels, following the T25 blind suggestion in the Poker Set Selection slides (with slight break modifications).
25/50
50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300
30-45min dinner break, with color up of T25 chips
200/400
300/600
5min break (not quite sure where to place this break, might find it naturally as we play with a more defined blind level system)
400/800
600/1200
800/1600
5min break, with color up of T100 chips
1000/2000
1500/3000
2000/4000
5 min break
3000/6000
4000/8000
6000/12000
8000/16000
10000/20000

I think a tournament lasting 4-5 hours would be best for us, and we could decrease the level times to 18, 16, or even 15 minutes as needed(?)

Please let me know if you have any questions about what I've laid out above! I'd love to know:

1. If this sounds like a good chip count and breakdown for our variable group? We'd really love to host up to 20 players, but I'd also love to slim down the chip amounts to thicken my wallet
2. If there are any flaws or issues you see in the blinds I've laid out, or any other part of the tournament "features."
3. How should I ensure I reserve enough chips for add-ons, rebuys, color-ups, etc.? I know using 2 5k's for rebuys would probably make it easier, but I'd really like to give everyone easier change to work with.
4. Are there some better calculations than I've laid out for the above? I do have a spreadsheet with the math I worked on if anyone would like to see, but it is quite messy. How do I manage these fluctuations on tournament day as the number of people that show up varies from week to week?
5. If I've missed anything as well, please let me know!

Reading these forums has been really helpful, and I'm really happy that there's such a great community around the world of home poker and poker chips!! Thanks, y'all! (also, thanks to Hairy_Crocodile for helping inspire me on how to format this post. I hope I didn't ask too many redundant questions than in threads past

 

[BPTDirector]

Most here will suggest a 12/12/7/5 or something like that but over the years I’ve found 8/8/x/x to be sufficient. On the blind rounds you’re pumping it pretty hard at the end but all before dinner rounds seem fine. Good Luck.

 

[BGinGA]

Below are my thoughts and recommended set totals for a 20-player T25-base using (up to) 20k stacks and (up to) ten re-buys, based on 12/12/5/6/2 (or 8/8/4/7/2 for 15-20 players) starting stacks and re-buy stacks of 5xT1000 + (up to) 3xT5000:

160 x T25
160 x T100
80 x T500
210 x T1000 (20x for color-ups, 50x for re-buys)
78 x T5000 (8x for T500 color-up, 30x for re-buys)
------
688 chips

However, if order restrictions require quantities to be multiples of 25 chips per denom, then this appears to be most efficient/required:

175 x T25
175 x T100
100 x T500
200 x T1000 (10x replaced with extra 20x T500s)
100 x T5000 (20x extra for 25k stacks or 5k add-ons)
--------
750 chips

The only thing this breakdown does not perfectly accommodate are your (up to) twenty 2k on-time bonuses, although there are 20x extra T5000s in the set that can be used for for re-buys/color-ups to free up 40 extra T1000s. Alternately, you can just purchase 50x more T1000 chips, making it an 800-chip set, which provides the needed T1000 chips for bonuses.

I disagree with the inefficient practice of using T500 chips for color-ups or re-buys, because a) they will just be removed via subsequent color-up, and b) additional T1000 chips will be needed later as it replaces the T100 as the workhorse chip.

Typical re-buy rates for 200bb events is 20%-33% of the field size, so planning for ten (50%) accommodates nearly all scenarios (plus the extra 20x T5000s can be used if needed).


Regarding blind structure:

I recommend adding a L2 25/75 level, to smooth out the blind progression and eliminate the 100% jump from 25/50 to 50/100. Otherwise, the structure is excellent, and most tournament lengths you have planned will typically range from L13 (2000/4000) to L18 (10k/20k).

That means with 8 players/10k stacks using 20- minute levels, the tournament will end by 2000/4000 and last roughly 4 hours plus breaks. And at the other extreme, 20 players with 20k stacks using 20-minute levels will typically end by the 10k/20k level and last roughly 6 hours plus breaks (or 4.5 hours if using 15-minute levels).

 

[CraftyCat05]

Thank you for your expert advice @BGinA! A couple of questions in response:

What would be a better rebuy breakdown without using the T500? Or should I still continue the idea of 1x5k, 4x1k, and 2x500, and then substitute in 2 T5k's as needed? Is just handing them 2 T5k's the best option in general and is it easy enough to just make change with others?

So by adding your recommended L2, there will just be another 20-minute level before our dinner break? That sounds fine to me, might just add a 5-minute break between L3 and L4. Makes sense!

I realized I didn't factor in coloring up the T500s: is that necessary, and where would be best to place that? Would it be that last 5-minute break I placed?

As I play around with blinds and such, especially as we possibly change stack sizes, etc., what's the math behind how long your blind structure would last? Is the PokerSoup calculator I've seen thrown around in other threads the best way?

I also didn't factor in a payout structure.
Right now, we've paid out the top three, no matter the number of people there (usually in the 6-10 range), using about a 50/30/20 split.
Is there a better system for the payouts? I'd still like to pay 3 players above about 6 people playing, but once we get into the MTT what's a better payout percentage structure that's fair, no matter the number of people playing?

I've just noticed that the Majestic $5000's just went out of stock in the last couple of hours. How long do they tend to stay out of stock? I plan on calling them later today to figure out options with them, too.

 

[BGinGA]

Thank you for your expert advice @BGinA! A couple of questions in response:

What would be a better rebuy breakdown without using the T500? Or should I still continue the idea of 1x5k, 4x1k, and 2x500, and then substitute in 2 T5k's as needed? Is just handing them 2 T5k's the best option in general and is it easy enough to just make change with others?

So by adding your recommended L2, there will just be another 20-minute level before our dinner break? That sounds fine to me, might just add a 5-minute break between L3 and L4. Makes sense!

I realized I didn't factor in coloring up the T500s: is that necessary, and where would be best to place that? Would it be that last 5-minute break I placed?

As I play around with blinds and such, especially as we possibly change stack sizes, etc., what's the math behind how long your blind structure would last? Is the PokerSoup calculator I've seen thrown around in other threads the best way?

I also didn't factor in a payout structure.
Right now, we've paid out the top three, no matter the number of people there (usually in the 6-10 range), using about a 50/30/20 split.
Is there a better system for the payouts? I'd still like to pay 3 players above about 6 people playing, but once we get into the MTT what's a better payout percentage structure that's fair, no matter the number of people playing?

I've just noticed that the Majestic $5000's just went out of stock in the last couple of hours. How long do they tend to stay out of stock? I plan on calling them later today to figure out options with them, too.

I schedule breaks every 3 to 5 levels depending on blind level times, usually 60-90 minutes apart. For your structure with 20-minute levels:
- 1st break after L3 50/100, no color-up
- 2nd break after L6 150/300, remove T25s
- 3rd break after L9 400/800, no color-up
- 4th break after L13 1500/3000, remove T100s and T500s
(Use T1000 chips to color-up T25s and T100s, and use T5000 chips to color-up the T500s.)
Color-up breaks should be longer (10 minutes). Bigger fields also require longer breaks. ^Those four breaks above will add 30 minutes to the event length.

As stated in my last post, recommended re-buy stacks are 5xT1000 + 1xT5000 (10k) or 5xT1000 + 3xT5000 (20k). No T500s are necessary. 2xT5000 (or 4xT5000) as initial re-buy stacks are not recommended due to the difficulty of making breakdown change for them at the table. Once additional T1000s have been introduced via re-buys and/or color-ups this becomes less of an issue.

The general guideline for maximum tournament duration is that it will typically end during or before the blind level where 20 total big blinds are in play. So 12 stacks of 10k = 120,000 total chips in play, while 20bb total in play would be at the 3000/6000 blind level (120k ÷ 20bb). Or 20 stacks of 20k = 400k in play, which when ÷ by 20bb = the 10,000/20,000 blind level.

Multiplying that blind level's number by the blind level duration (in minutes) gives the estimated total number of minutes (or hours, if ÷ by 60) for the event, excluding breaks (example: L18 × 20 minutes = 360 minutes, or 6 hours). The reasoning behind this max time guideline is that with 20bb total in play, the average stack heads-up is only 10bb -- and that most hands at this point (played correctly) will be all-in, with the loser being eliminated.

Regarding payouts, I favor paying the top 25% of the field size (or 25% of total entries if allowing re-buys, but always <50% of field size) using a relatively flat structure. I generally use a payout structure something like this:
4-7 players/entries = pays 1 (winner-takes-all)
8-11 players/entries = pays 2 (60/40)
12-15 players/entries = pays 3 (55/30/15)
16-19 players/entries = pays 4 (45/30/15/10)
20-23 players/entries = pays 5 (40/28/17/10/5)
All payouts are rounded to the nearest $5 increment.

 

[CraftyCat05]

Thank you so much for the clarification and help BG! I think I've got a good grasp of how to proceed and what breakdown I should use, assuming I can get my hands on those T5000 chips now.

I like that payout structure, makes sense!

 

[Dante7]

I schedule breaks every 3 to 5 levels depending on blind level times, usually 60-90 minutes apart. For your structure with 20-minute levels:
- 1st break after L3 50/100, no color-up
- 2nd break after L6 150/300, remove T25s
- 3rd break after L9 400/800, no color-up
- 4th break after L13 1500/3000, remove T100s and T500s
(Use T1000 chips to color-up T25s and T100s, and use T5000 chips to color-up the T500s.)
Color-up breaks should be longer (10 minutes). Bigger fields also require longer breaks. ^Those four breaks above will add 30 minutes to the event length.

As stated in my last post, recommended re-buy stacks are 5xT1000 + 1xT5000 (10k) or 5xT1000 + 3xT5000 (20k). No T500s are necessary. 2xT5000 (or 4xT5000) as initial re-buy stacks are not recommended due to the difficulty of making breakdown change for them at the table. Once additional T1000s have been introduced via re-buys and/or color-ups this becomes less of an issue.

The general guideline for maximum tournament duration is that it will typically end during or before the blind level where 20 total big blinds are in play. So 12 stacks of 10k = 120,000 total chips in play, while 20bb total in play would be at the 3000/6000 blind level (120k ÷ 20bb). Or 20 stacks of 20k = 400k in play, which when ÷ by 20bb = the 10,000/20,000 blind level.

Multiplying that blind level's number by the blind level duration (in minutes) gives the estimated total number of minutes (or hours, if ÷ by 60) for the event, excluding breaks (example: L18 × 20 minutes = 360 minutes, or 6 hours). The reasoning behind this max time guideline is that with 20bb total in play, the average stack heads-up is only 10bb -- and that most hands at this point (played correctly) will be all-in, with the loser being eliminated.

Regarding payouts, I favor paying the top 25% of the field size (or 25% of total entries if allowing re-buys, but always <50% of field size) using a relatively flat structure. I generally use a payout structure something like this:
4-7 players/entries = pays 1 (winner-takes-all)
8-11 players/entries = pays 2 (60/40)
12-15 players/entries = pays 3 (55/30/15)
16-19 players/entries = pays 4 (45/30/15/10)
20-23 players/entries = pays 5 (40/28/17/10/5)
All payouts are rounded to the nearest $5 increment.

Holy smokes man. This is great information. Thanks for this!