Theory Question- Serial Flatters (1 Viewer)

[tripleflatbarrel]

So I've noticed in my regular game that a few guys just love to slow play monsters preflop. They flat an opening raise, both IP and OOP, with JJ+ with an alarming frequency. They are in general very tight fit or fold, but, oddly, not super passive aside from this quirk.

It's gotten me thinking, what is the proper adjustment to this, especially when they have position on us? Obviously it's not the worst position to be in, as they are leaving a ton of value on the table. Still, it does change our thought process slightly when entering pots with them.

*(I fully realize they are doing this to be cagey, and think it will totally throw off our game in a detrimental manner. Obviously we won't let it, but there has to be one method to maximally exploit this tendency of theirs.)


In order to tackle the question in a vacuum, let's assume two "serial flatters" are to our left. Neither of these players will 3! any of our opens. They're either calling or folding. Lets assume they dont have any major leaks pre or post aside from never 3!.

We are in the cutoff. Pot is either folded or limped to us.

What is the optimal adjustment, IYO, to this scenario.

My initial thought is to increase our open size well above the table standard. By doing so, we are attempting to "reverse cap" their range. Let's say V's will call our standard 3.5x open with the top 15% of their range. If we raise to, say, 8.5x, they will only call with the top 2% of their range. If we keep a standard open size, a call from the Button, for instance, is pretty well capped against a typical opponent. In our case, their range is still uncapped, making our decisions, especially being OOP, more difficult. By pushing out a good portion of their calling range, we can know we are up against the top of their range when they call our oversized open and adjust our flop play accordingly.

 

[bmichaelhorn]

I don't know why'd you adjust preflop as the they won't be dealt monsters often enough to make any betting adjustment profitable. Besides, why do you want to only play against their big hands by "reverse capping" their range via larger preflop bets? Sounds counterintuitive to me.

I would try to focus on hand reading and cautious post flop play against these villains. Practice pot control in position and maybe be more willing to check call OOP with made hands.

 

[tripleflatbarrel]

Probably. ... the more I think about it the more it's not really an issue. Was sort of leveling myself into thinking some adjustment could be made from a GTO type standpoint. I think the main issue is what you said, that monsters are so infrequent that adjusting our game for their rare appearance is silly.

 

[courage]

I don't think your pf bet sizing should change but widen the range entering the pot with more suited connectors and suited aces that flop well and allow you to barrel vs fit/fold flatters seems right, assuming this is nlhe.

 

[lherron]

3 out of 169 hands they're going play differently so probably shouldn't effect your play much. Maybe slightly wider raising range in LP since they are less likely to come back over the top. Nothing drastic.

 

[DrStrange]

Hero is missing two huge bits of data - How big are stacks? How tight is the calling range?

I play with guys like these - some are tight passive preflop, some loose passive and some are loose aggressive except they often slow play big pairs.

First off, Hero absolutely should make zero adjustments to target two guys at the expense of decreasing effectiveness vs the field. The "sneaky" play already costs them a lot of value in preflop equity and if they stack off with an overpair too often, then they pay a second cost too.

My advise to Hero is adjust your ranges to include the prospect of AA/KK/QQ {maybe AK/JJ?} and proceed as normal otherwise.

Do not over think this. It is two guys at the table and how they play 2% of their hands. And it only matters if Hero is in the pot. We are talking about 2-4 hands a session.

DrStrange