Thinking player that always loses in his home games. (6 Viewers)

[snowman7777]

Hey everyone,

Im new here so not sure if this fits in Poker Strategy or Home Game General.

Ive played no-limit hold em since I was young and always had solid instincts with the game and really enjoyed it. About 18 months ago I decided to really dive in and see if I could become a winning player. I study poker math and read/watch a variety of different poker channels/blogs. I also multi-table online micro (.02/.05) cash games regularly. I dont track my hourly earnings but based on my bankroll, I spent roughly the first 6 months being a loser, the next 8ish months breaking even, and these past 4 months im finally making a tiny profit. This is still very much a hobby for me and I dont intend for it to ever really progress past that.

I also started hosting poker games with my friends over the past year. These guys know absolutely nothing about poker. No one besides me and maybe one other guy knows what GTO or SPR or Pot Odds is. Its mainly just an excuse for us to get together on a regular basis, get some drinks flowing, and talk a little crap. We keep the stakes low and no one ever leaves more than a tank of gas in the hole.

Here's my question... Ive noticed that as my win rate gets better online it gets worse in my home games. Has anyone else run into this? I kinda chalk it up to me getting drunk and out of line but these guys have no idea what theyre doing and are out of line every hand. Im probably the biggest loser over the past 6 sessions. Is it just a small sample size? Why cant I figure this out? Any strategy tips for a table full of complete fish?

A little info on some standard action.. I am the only one that will ever fold a hand preflop instead of limping and I only rarely do this as one of the first to act. 10x opens will get called in at least 2 spots. I size my premiums to like 20x sometimes and still get called. Very passive play. Lots of limp calling and waiting for show down. Absolute sizing is all that really matters in this game. $5 is $5 no matter how much is in the middle.

This really is just a hobby and Im not here to try and make money off of my friends. I just want to hear some of y'alls thoughts and maybe see if there is anyone else that has been through the same thing that i am going through.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Welcome! Well sample size wise, you're playing wayyyy more hands online than in person, especially if its a drunky relaxed game. So everything else aside, thats a big difference in the stats you're building, plus the live game is probably swingier.

You're probably overthinking the splashy drunk game. They dont care about handranges or cbetting, they will call you if they have a pair or fold if they dont have anything. Alternatively you may be playing super face up, they call preflop knowing your hand range is "better" than theirs and hope to score off you.

Bet bigger when you have it, play less hands, stop trying fancy plays and just value bet. Look for drunk tells, are they already resigned to fold, are they all of a sudden leaning forward and interested?

No worries, keep enjoying the game.

 

[upNdown]

Yeah, home games at fun stakes tend to play loose, crazy, stupid, and probably all three. I’m. It saying you can’t win consistently in those games, but you’ll need to figure out different strategies than you use to win online.
Think of it as a different game entirely. It’s still poker, but a different kind of poker.

 

[jayfiggy]

In a very short version, online is incredibly theory based and there are going to be much less people playing with their “gut” rather than studying a GTO chart and a solver. Even in micro-stakes. In live poker exploitative play will be much more effective (assuming your opponents are not amazing players) especially if you can figure out your opponents play type and what they are capable of. If you want to look more into exploitative play hungryhorse youtube has a lot of good stuff from a winning player.

 

[Goldfish]

Quickest way to feel better about your holdem game is to try PLO…….

 

[snowman7777]

In a very short version, online is incredibly theory based and there are going to be much less people playing with their “gut” rather than studying a GTO chart and a solver. Even in micro-stakes. In live poker exploitative play will be much more effective (assuming your opponents are not amazing players) especially if you can figure out your opponents play type and what they are capable of. If you want to look more into exploitative play hungryhorse youtube has a lot of good stuff from a winning player.

Marc Goone is a poker prophet! His channel took my game to the next level.

 

[drdr]

Welcome. A good first thread.
I'm a little surprised at how long it took to start winning online. There is a difference between knowing poker theory and implementing it. Software like PokerTracker would capture all play aso verify your play and spot leaks. But as others say, volume of hands and variance is a big factor here. Pocket Tracker would quantify that also.

 

[DrStrange]

Fold lots, raise with premium hands, don't c-bet, Really, really don't bluff, value bet your made hands relentlessly. Personally, I'll limp speculative hands while other folks here only raise/fold.

As noted by others, it might all be "poker" but live home games aren't anything like on-line micro stakes. Hero will have to learn how to play vs his locals. But, it should be easy to learn how to win.

 

[snowman7777]

Welcome. A good first thread.
I'm a little surprised at how long it took to start winning online. There is a difference between knowing poker theory and implementing it. Software like PokerTracker would capture all play aso verify your play and spot leaks. But as others say, volume of hands and variance is a big factor here. Pocket Tracker would quantify that also.

How fast do you think the average person can go from losing/breakeven to winning? Its hard to nail down when I actually started winning. There were a few points along the way where i thought I was winning but wasnt sure because of the natural swings of NLHE and the fact that Im not really tracking anything other than my bankroll (also used for sports betting). I can confidently say I have been winning consistently for about 4 months maybe its been longer though not sure.

 

[snowman7777]

Fold lots, raise with premium hands, don't c-bet, Really, really don't bluff, value bet your made hands relentlessly. Personally, I'll limp speculative hands while other folks here only raise/fold.

As noted by others, it might all be "poker" but live home games aren't anything like on-line micro stakes. Hero will have to learn how to play vs his locals. But, it should be easy to learn how to win.

I cant bring myself to only raise/fold in this game lol. I get too drunk and bored given how slow the hands get dealt. Never bluffing and value betting the crap out of people is kind of what I have landed on though. Seems like the only way to play against these drunk fools.

I wonder if raising less often actually makes sense. Like limping with any suited or connected holding with the intention of getting all the money in if I make any sort of strong hand.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Welcome! Well sample size wise, you're playing wayyyy more hands online than in person, especially if its a drunky relaxed game. So everything else aside, thats a big difference in the stats you're building, plus the live game is probably swingier.

You're probably overthinking the splashy drunk game. They dont care about handranges or cbetting, they will call you if they have a pair or fold if they dont have anything. Alternatively you may be playing super face up, they call preflop knowing your hand range is "better" than theirs and hope to score off you.

Bet bigger when you have it, play less hands, stop trying fancy plays and just value bet. Look for drunk tells, are they already resigned to fold, are they all of a sudden leaning forward and interested?

No worries, keep enjoying the game.

Just to add on, there's a great book on this called The Course by Ed Miller. Although you feel you're getting much better at poker, poker is all about adapting to your table: even the most GTO-minded player would be changing their play at that table because they can think and adapt. This is the easiest type of puzzle, but it takes patience to solve it, don't force anything, they'll punt they always do.

Your post shows you're learning and that's great, but if you're raising 20x and getting called with premiums, you're obviously doing something right and you need to realize that. Even if you lose the hand that's a fantastic situation, sign up for that situation every time. Limping with marginal iffy hands is fine but you need to be comfortable folding them when opponents bet, and I would bet that you get bored and may call/raise too much with second best hands. Lotta money to be made playing weird hands but when you hit trips with your 95o you need to be disciplined enough to fold it to the mook that's beting into you because he always has it; its not a bad beat when you get outkicked. You admit that you get drunk and bored; well yeah, that's where the money is going lol. Online the hands come 10x faster and decisions are quicker, you have to be disciplined while playing live as well.


Or, embrace the ape. Limp reraise your 84o, it may hit. Make drink bets. Pretend you have Aces. Check the nuts.

Apes together, strong.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Hey everyone,

Im new here so not sure if this fits in Poker Strategy or Home Game General.

Ive played no-limit hold em since I was young and always had solid instincts with the game and really enjoyed it. About 18 months ago I decided to really dive in and see if I could become a winning player. I study poker math and read/watch a variety of different poker channels/blogs. I also multi-table online micro (.02/.05) cash games regularly. I dont track my hourly earnings but based on my bankroll, I spent roughly the first 6 months being a loser, the next 8ish months breaking even, and these past 4 months im finally making a tiny profit. This is still very much a hobby for me and I dont intend for it to ever really progress past that.

I also started hosting poker games with my friends over the past year. These guys know absolutely nothing about poker. No one besides me and maybe one other guy knows what GTO or SPR or Pot Odds is. Its mainly just an excuse for us to get together on a regular basis, get some drinks flowing, and talk a little crap. We keep the stakes low and no one ever leaves more than a tank of gas in the hole.

Here's my question... Ive noticed that as my win rate gets better online it gets worse in my home games. Has anyone else run into this?

There's not really much to say about this unless and until you start collecting data beyond noting that your bankroll seems to be growing or shrinking. Seriously, if you have any interest in analyzing your own play, understanding where you're strong, and definitively knowing your win/loss rates and things of that nature, keep track. If you want I can give you a spreadsheet template that will get you started. (A poker-tracking app might be good if you prefer phone stuff, but I don't use them.)

Whatever the case, tracking results is good and you should do it.

I kinda chalk it up to me getting drunk and out of line but these guys have no idea what theyre doing and are out of line every hand. Im probably the biggest loser over the past 6 sessions. Is it just a small sample size? Why cant I figure this out? Any strategy tips for a table full of complete fish?

A little info on some standard action.. I am the only one that will ever fold a hand preflop instead of limping and I only rarely do this as one of the first to act. 10x opens will get called in at least 2 spots. I size my premiums to like 20x sometimes and still get called. Very passive play. Lots of limp calling and waiting for show down. Absolute sizing is all that really matters in this game. $5 is $5 no matter how much is in the middle.

This really is just a hobby and Im not here to try and make money off of my friends. I just want to hear some of y'alls thoughts and maybe see if there is anyone else that has been through the same thing that i am going through.

This is such a classic question.

First of all, the fact that you've run cold the first 6 games probably means nothing, if your game is truly solid enough to grind online micros. Just a bad run of sessions. It happens. Your sample size is too small to say anything else. That out of the way, your frustration with this type of game makes perfect sense.

When you're playing online micro-stakes, you're likely playing a very basic, tight-aggressive ("TAG") strategy, against a vast sea of mostly anonymous players. That is, you're playing a strategy that's built to work against anyone, the type of strategy that's been mass-marketed by pros and authors for ages. The Budweiser of strategies, if you like. While it might not be game-theory optimal, it's still a reliable default weapon against most lineups you will face, especially at low stakes.

Against the players in your live game, you will likely still win long-term with the TAG strategy. It sounds like they're not doing anything to counter it. But your results will be much more variable than in a tamer game because they're playing a wider variety of styles than you see online, particularly extreme styles like playing almost every hand and being ignorant of bet sizing relative to the pot. You also won't win nearly as much with a TAG strategy as you could with an exploitative strategy.

Bread-and-butter TAG plays like always opening preflop with a proportional raise, continuation-betting most flops, and limiting yourself to only premium openers aren't necessarily losing you chips, but they may create harder-to-navigate spots than usual, and they definitely leave money on the table.

You can maintain ungodly win rates and winning-session % with a spread of opponents like this, but the TAG strategy is pretty far from optimal. There are two places where you'll need to adjust:

1. Seek and tweak any tendencies in your default play style that are weak against their play styles.
2. Identify the most exploitable tendencies in their play styles and set about planning how to exploit them.

With regard to #1, I mention continuation-betting above, but best to think about this as a more general category. Against loose players, basically any play in your arsenal that's a bluff or even a semi-bluff should be employed only rarely, as you're going to get snapped off quite often. Consider the components of your strategy in this light, and tone down or curtail anything that isn't ideal for this situation.

As to #2, you already invited an example: they ignore bet sizing relative to the pot. This is an extremely exploitable error that invites multiple strategy changes. It likely means a few things:

1. You will often be able to draw cheaply. Players aren't betting enough to protect their hands in big pots. You can now get away with playing a wider variety of openers, if you can get to the flop cheaply, and you can go further in the hand because you'll often be getting sufficient odds to draw.
2. You can take cheap stabs in big pots. Bluffing is usually a bad idea against loose players, but if a player will fold a $100 pot to a $5 bet with the same frequency he'll fold a $10 pot to a $5 bet, you should consider making the occasional small bluff on the end in big pots. Your opponent only has to fold about (back of the napkin) 4.8% of the time for that to be a good bet on your end. In addition to made hands they'll call with, players like this will turn up on the end with all kinds of ace-high busted draws, underpairs, etc. that might beat you, but that they don't want to "waste" $5 on. Just like your bluff only needs to work 4.8% of the time, they only have to have the winning hand 4.8% of the time to make it a good call, but they're just not thinking like this.
3. You can get paid off big with your monster hands. (I'm assuming that the game plays with reasonable stack depths, at least 100 BB.) If your opponents don't seem to care about the size of the pot relative to bet sizes, they likely also don't pay that much attention to whether a bet is disproportionate to the pot. This can become especially powerful when you're up against someone who has built up a large stack over the night. Combined with the fact that you'll be in more limped pots chasing more cheap draws, being able to also get paid off big on those draws can set you up to really clean up as the night wears on.

From the description of your opponents, they likely have a long list of exploitable tendencies both in the aggregate and as individuals, enough to keep you busy figuring out the puzzle for a long time, and to make this post several pages long.

I will leave you with just one general piece of advice:

Exercise your proportional reasoning. It's not the only skill you need, but it's the most valuable skill to help you analyze the strategically weird situations that a game like this will produce.

 

[Mojo1312]

I also started hosting poker games with my friends over the past year. These guys know absolutely nothing about poker.

Here's my question... Ive noticed that as my win rate gets better online it gets worse in my home games. Has anyone else run into this?

Could be you suck at live poker.

I kinda chalk it up to me getting drunk and out of line

But these guys have no idea what theyre doing and are out of line every hand.

Says the self confessed booze hound.

Im probably the biggest loser over the past 6 sessions. Is it just a small sample size? Why cant I figure this out? Any strategy tips for a table full of complete fish?

Life is a mystery. The answer is usually found at he bottom of a Tequila bottle.

A little info on some standard action.. I am the only one that will ever fold a hand preflop instead of limping and I only rarely do this as one of the first to act. 10x opens will get called in at least 2 spots. I size my premiums to like 20x sometimes and still get called.

Play checkers.

Very passive play. Lots of limp calling and waiting for show down.

10x opens will get called in at least 2 spots. I size my premiums to like 20x sometimes and still get called...??? Sounds like you are playing a different game from the rest of the table.

Absolute sizing is all that really matters in this game.

Absolute sizing relative to the pot?

$5 is $5 no matter how much is in the middle.

Are you drinking now?

This really is just a hobby and Im not here to try and make money off of my friends.

Check your mailbox for an invite to our home game. We are all friends.

I just want to hear some of y'alls thoughts.

You are unlucky??

Has anyone else been through the same thing that i am going through.

No.

 

[drdr]

How fast do you think the average person can go from losing/breakeven to winning? Its hard to nail down when I actually started winning. There were a few points along the way where i thought I was winning but wasnt sure because of the natural swings of NLHE and the fact that Im not really tracking anything other than my bankroll (also used for sports betting). I can confidently say I have been winning consistently for about 4 months maybe its been longer though not sure.

I would expect a player with sound basics would win micro stakes almost immediately. But there is a difference between knowing and implementing correctly. Raw stats can be confronting but powerful triggers for improving one's game. Raw stats can also help confirm play is good but variance is getting you.

 

[drdr]

I cant bring myself to only raise/fold in this game lol. I get too drunk and bored given how slow the hands get dealt. Never bluffing and value betting the crap out of people is kind of what I have landed on though. Seems like the only way to play against these drunk fools.

I wonder if raising less often actually makes sense. Like limping with any suited or connected holding with the intention of getting all the money in if I make any sort of strong hand.

1. Don't drink so much. Seriously.
2. Don't loosen up to the point you play the same as the table. Playing tight saves chips by avoiding ending up in difficult hands (weak kickers, weaker flushes) than can cost. ABC poker playing only hands where you are a greater favourite is my advice. Less variance, mostly profit sessions.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Don't loosen up to the point you play the same as the table.

Great tip. You can even cut it cleanly to the general case:

Don't play the same as the table.

If you're playing the same as the table, you're not playing better than the table.

Play better than the table and you will win. The trick lies in figuring out what "better" means at any given table.

 

[Machine]

With only 220 starting hands, a range chart of playable hands / break even / + EV hands, terms like MDF, SPR, implied odds, and so many backpackers with hoodies and headphones. I just don't see the appeal of Texas hold'em. The game was meant to be played with your net worth or at least a percentage of your net worth. At this point it really feels like there is no magic, the game has been solved, I'd sooner play go fish.

Serious question, why not play something that is more challenging, something that hasn't been solved?

 

[BGinGA]

I'd sooner play go fish.

No-Limit or Fixed-Limit? Asking for a friend.....

 

[Huskerchipper]

Fold lots, raise with premium hands, don't c-bet, Really, really don't bluff, value bet your made hands relentlessly. Personally, I'll limp speculative hands while other folks here only raise/fold.

As noted by others, it might all be "poker" but live home games aren't anything like on-line micro stakes. Hero will have to learn how to play vs his locals. But, it should be easy to learn how to win.

This is where my mind went. I see alot of decent players completely struggle against novices time and time again. It's a completely different strategy. Like DrStrange mentioned, do not bluff much or at least only in premium situations. Speculate alot of hands but only bet big when you know you've got it. Your going to get sucked out with these types of players but keep your losses to a minimum if possible with these hands. Patience is your friend. Take your time and pick your spots.

 

[snowman7777]

There's not really much to say about this unless and until you start collecting data beyond noting that your bankroll seems to be growing or shrinking. Seriously, if you have any interest in analyzing your own play, understanding where you're strong, and definitively knowing your win/loss rates and things of that nature, keep track. If you want I can give you a spreadsheet template that will get you started. (A poker-tracking app might be good if you prefer phone stuff, but I don't use them.)

Whatever the case, tracking results is good and you should do it.

I know I should be tracking things. I start tracking in my app every so often but then lose interest after a while lol.

When you're playing online micro-stakes, you're likely playing a very basic, tight-aggressive ("TAG") strategy, against a vast sea of mostly anonymous players. That is, you're playing a strategy that's built to work against anyone, the type of strategy that's been mass-marketed by pros and authors for ages. The Budweiser of strategies, if you like. While it might not be game-theory optimal, it's still a reliable default weapon against most lineups you will face, especially at low stakes.

Against the players in your live game, you will likely still win long-term with the TAG strategy. It sounds like they're not doing anything to counter it. But your results will be much more variable than in a tamer game because they're playing a wider variety of styles than you see online, particularly extreme styles like playing almost every hand and being ignorant of bet sizing relative to the pot. You also won't win nearly as much with a TAG strategy as you could with an exploitative strategy.

Bread-and-butter TAG plays like always opening preflop with a proportional raise, continuation-betting most flops, and limiting yourself to only premium openers aren't necessarily losing you chips, but they may create harder-to-navigate spots than usual, and they definitely leave money on the table.

You can maintain ungodly win rates and winning-session % with a spread of opponents like this, but the TAG strategy is pretty far from optimal. There are two places where you'll need to adjust:

1. Seek and tweak any tendencies in your default play style that are weak against their play styles.
2. Identify the most exploitable tendencies in their play styles and set about planning how to exploit them.

This makes a lot of sense to me. I think my game has been tailored to the generic anonymous style that is online poker. I have been able to read up on strategy and then improve via trial and error. Those same strategies will most likely work in the long run but I have to be able to adjust to the dynamics of the live table and wacky play styles of my friends if I really want to start imposing my poker will on them.

Could be you suck at live poker.




Says the self confessed booze hound.



Life is a mystery. The answer is usually found at he bottom of a Tequila bottle.



Play checkers.



10x opens will get called in at least 2 spots. I size my premiums to like 20x sometimes and still get called...??? Sounds like you are playing a different game from the rest of the table.



Absolute sizing relative to the pot?



Are you drinking now?



Check your mailbox for an invite to our home game. We are all friends.



You are unlucky??



No.

Cant tell if this is playful or malicious. Or both lol

Or, embrace the ape. Limp reraise your 84o, it may hit. Make drink bets. Pretend you have Aces. Check the nuts.

This is inevitable after 4 hours of bulleit bourbon when my idiot friend sucks out on me and starts talking trash

This is a lot more interaction than I expected! I only host games once a month but i will report back on how the next session goes!!

 

[drdr]

Cant tell if this is playful or malicious. Or both lol

Take it as playful tinted by reality. Ask a poker player if they make money... 99% say yes. Yet my old database says 80% lose, 10% break even, 10% make money. It's very easy to dismiss claims of being a thinking player.

If you want to be a winning player I think you have to change (based on your posts).

Track session results diligently.
Always question if you are really good.
Stop playing drunk.
Get over being bored.
Continuous work on your game.

Most people who say they want to improve... don't.

 

[Mojo1312]

Cant tell if this is playful or malicious. Or both lol

Neither.

I have to be able to adjust to the dynamics of the live table and wacky play styles of my friends if I really want to start imposing my poker will on them.

I have changed my mind. The answer is malicious.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Yet my old database says 80% lose, 10% break even, 10% make money.

Really? I figured it would be a little higher than 10% on the plus side.

 

[drdr]

Really? I figured it would be a little higher than 10% on the plus side.

2+ mill hands, but micro and small stakes limit holdem. Wouldn't be surprised if it differs for other variants. Be really cool to know other's numbers.

 

[demonnic]

One of the things that I find is really hard for a lot of people to truly internalize is that winning poker is boring poker the vast majority of the time. If you're VPIP is 33% you're still folding roughly twice as many hands as you're playing. So if your enjoyment largely stems from the hands you're actually playing this can be rough.

For me a lot of what happens in between the hands is just as much fun as the hands themselves. Observing my opponents tendencies looking for tells, constructing ranges for them based on what they show down in hands I'm not in myself, and just the general trash talking of a friendly game. Or even to some extent casino tables. This is what keeps me invested and interested in things when I'm playing my thinking game.

But if you're just drinking and having a good time with your buddies, do you need to be implementing your 'thinking' game? Not every game of poker needs to be serious. A lot of your frustration seems to stem from trying to straddle the line between "drinking and hanging with my buds while incidentally we play poker" and "playing a serious game of poker, it just so happens to be with friends". I think nailing down what you actually want to get out of these poker nights will help a lot. If it's the former, carry on and try not to be so hung up about your winrate in a game that's more about having fun with friends than playing 'good' poker. If it's the latter, cut back on the bourbon and try to focus on the other players tendencies so you can find their exploits and CRUSH THEM.

 

[snowman7777]

I have changed my mind. The answer is malicious.

Probably deserved lol

 

[snowman7777]

If you want to be a winning player I think you have to change (based on your posts).

Track session results diligently.
Always question if you are really good.
Stop playing drunk.
Get over being bored.
Continuous work on your game.

Most people who say they want to improve... don't.

You're hitting the nail on the head. I've learned over the past 18 months that this game is soooo unforgiving. You have to be constantly looking in the mirror and self analyzing if you really want to improve. It is so easy to focus on results when you are winning and come up with excuses when you are losing. These points of advice were good to hear from someone on the outside looking in.

 

[snowman7777]

For me a lot of what happens in between the hands is just as much fun as the hands themselves. Observing my opponents tendencies looking for tells, constructing ranges for them based on what they show down in hands I'm not in myself, and just the general trash talking of a friendly game. Or even to some extent casino tables. This is what keeps me invested and interested in things when I'm playing my thinking game.

I do need to be content just shooting the shit instead of trying to force action just for entertainment. This has definitely been a leak that I picked up on a few sessions ago.

Alright guys more folding and less liquor if I want to start winning. I get the message. Lets see if I can find a healthy balance!!

 

[upNdown]

With only 220 starting hands, a range chart of playable hands / break even / + EV hands, terms like MDF, SPR, implied odds, and so many backpackers with hoodies and headphones. I just don't see the appeal of Texas hold'em. The game was meant to be played with your net worth or at least a percentage of your net worth. At this point it really feels like there is no magic, the game has been solved, I'd sooner play go fish.

Serious question, why not play something that is more challenging, something that hasn't been solved?

I can answer this one. Because that’s the game that most people know and think they understand and are comfortable playing for money. Yeah the game’s been solved, but not by anybody at his game.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I can answer this one. Because that’s the game that most people know and think they understand and are comfortable playing for money. Yeah the game’s been solved, but not by anybody at his game.

Funny but true.

Many people who fall into this category seem to also bristle at the idea of playing NLHE shorthanded, with straddles, or with any kind of modification (nit game, bomb pots, etc.)—probably because their poker skill relies so heavily on rote strategies that don't hold up in the face of change.