Tourney Tourney Questions (1 Viewer)

[Virtus]

When setting up a tournament blind structure how do you determine how long the game should last like when the BB reaches a certain % of the total chips in play?

I'm working with several guys to put together a neighborhood game. The main guy organizimg everything just moved here and had a regular game before. His structure is awful though and I'm wanting to bring him some other options but wanted to provide some reasoning as well.

His idea and what he says he used to play is a T2000 with 20, 50, 100, and 500 denominations. 20 minute blinds:
20/40
40/80
50/100 (this was all he had listed so not sure if there was more)

I know.....

He's got non-denomination chips so we can do whatever. My thought was T10k with 12/12/6/5 (25, 100, 500, 1000). A single re-buy allowed per player if you're out until the first break. 15 min blinds:

25/50
50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300
10 min break/ color up 25s
200/400
300/600
400/800
600/1200
800/1600
10 min break/ color up 100s
1000/2000
1500/3000
2000/4000
3000/6000
4000/8000

I'm skipping the 25/75 blinds for times sake and to keep even levels between color up breaks.

We need the game to last no longer than 3.5-4 hours with breaks. I think we will probably have 8-10 players to start but have enough interest that I could see it growing to two tables with 15-20 players. How will that effect things.

Ideas? Suggestions?

I would like to have a few options to present so it doesn't seem like I'm just trying to choose everything.

Thanks!

 

[Blaster]

There are lots of threads about blind levels... Generally you can use the last level as when the BB is equal to 1/20th the chips in play & work back from there...
Also if you go to www.blidvalet.fr you can plug in your desired run time & starting stack, and get a decent structure as well, & it lets you tweak and recalculate too.

 

[Mental Nomad]

Yeah, when the BB is 1/20th (or 5%) of the total chips in play, the game will end soon, provided the two remaining people are playing poker.

You don't have to push up the blinds further, but you can.

It's also not unlikely that the tournament ends before you reach that level... but it can't last long once the BB is 1/20th. Even assuming the chips are split equally and there's no "small stack," if each player has 10 BB, they should both be shoving all-in an awful lot. If someone is actually ahead, the short stack should be shoving even more often.

 

[upNdown]

This one works pretty good too:

https://pokersoup.com/tool/blindStructureCalculator

 

[mummel]

I tried this the other night and it worked great except change lvl 13 SB back to $1k.

My thought was T10k with 12/12/6/5

The breakdown for T10,000 would be 12-12-5-6. Our games normally end at level 12-14.

 

[BGinGA]

When setting up a tournament blind structure how do you determine how long the game should last...?

Most tournaments will finish no later than the level when 20 total big blinds remain in play on the table. Once that level is known, the length of the individual blind levels can be adjusted to make the maximum tourney duration fit your specific time requirements.

I'm working with several guys to put together a neighborhood game. The main guy organizimg everything just moved here and had a regular game before. His structure is awful though and I'm wanting to bring him some other options but wanted to provide some reasoning as well.

His idea and what he says he used to play is a T2000 with 20, 50, 100, and 500 denominations. 20 minute blinds:
20/40
40/80
50/100 (this was all he had listed so not sure if there was more)

I know.....

Yeah, that blows.... on several fronts. Optimum spacing between denominations is 4x or 5x, not 2.5x or 2x.

He's got non-denomination chips so we can do whatever. My thought was T10k with 12/12/6/5 (25, 100, 500, 1000).

Your proposed 12/12/6/5 starting stack = T9500, not T10000. Either 12/12/5/6 or 12/12/7/5 stacks are equal to T10000, and provide ample chips of each denomination.

15 min blinds:
25/50
50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300
10 min break/ color up 25s
200/400
300/600
400/800
600/1200
800/1600
10 min break/ color up 100s
1000/2000
1500/3000
2000/4000
3000/6000
4000/8000

I'm skipping the 25/75 blinds for times sake and to keep even levels between color up breaks.

The key to a solid blind structure is consistency, meaning that the blind increases at each level should remain within a narrow spectrum. Your structure has increases ranging from 25% (L11-L12) to 100% (L1-L2), which is too wide of a range imo. Structure could be improved by adding T25/T75 at L2 and replacing T1000/T2000 with T1200/2400, keeping within your time constraints while maintaining consistency across blind increases and time between breaks:

T10000 starting stacks (200BB):
15-minute blind levels
lvl sb bb
L1 25 50
L2 25 75
L3 50 100
L4 75 150
end re-buy period
L5 100 200
L6 150 300
remove T25 chips
L7 200 400
L8 300 600
L9 400 800
L10 600 1200
L11 800 1600
L12 1200 2400
remove T100 chips
L13 1500 3000
L14 2000 4000 ***
L15 3000 6000
L16 4000 8000
L17 6000 12000

T1000 chips should be used to color-up the T25 chips, and T5000 chips should be used to color-up the T100 chips. With a single table, it will probably be unnecessary to color-up the T500 chips.

We need the game to last no longer than 3.5-4 hours with breaks. I think we will probably have 8-10 players to start but have enough interest that I could see it growing to two tables with 15-20 players. How will that effect things.

With 10 players and 15-minute levels, the structure above will typically end no later than L14 (3.5 hours plus breaks). For 20 players with 15-minute blinds, about L16 (4 hours plus breaks).

A single re-buy allowed per player if you're out until the first break.

Re-buy periods should be based on what makes financial and playable sense, not by a fixed time duration or aligning with scheduled breaks. Re-buying a full-cost starting stack that could be worth only 25BB in play is not a wise decision. With the structure above, I recommend ending the re-buy period after L4 (one hour of play, using 15-minute levels). A re-buy stack purchased at the end of L4 will be worth at worst 50 big blinds at the beginning of L5 (one-fourth the value of an original starting stack).

Ideas? Suggestions?

I would like to have a few options to present so it doesn't seem like I'm just trying to choose everything.

The structure above uses 41% average blind increases with 15-minute levels to fit in your four hour time window. A more aggressive structure (59% average increases) would allow for fewer blind levels that each last longer (20-25 minutes), yet still fit in the time window. A super-aggressive structure (95% average increases) would result in even longer blind level times (and fewer levels). There are lots of ways to skin the cat.

 

[Virtus]

Thank you all for the replies.

@BGinGA

Would you please provide the blind structure that would be used with 20 minute levels (59% avg increase)?

Also, does anyone have a good T1500 or T2000 structure I could present as well. I'm assuming the blinds would start at the 5/10 level here?

 

[BGinGA]

Would you please provide the blind structure that would be used with 20 minute levels (59% avg increase)?

T20000 starting stacks (200BB)
20-minute levesl (< 4 hrs w/breaks)
59% average blind increases (all ranging from 50%-67%)
Re-buys (if used) for the first two or three levels

lvl sb bb
L1 50 100
L2 75 150
L3 125 250
remove T25 chips
L4 200 400
L5 300 600
L6 500 1000
L7 800 1600
L8 1200 2400
remove T100/T500 chips
L9 2000 4000
L10 3000 6000
L11 5000 10000 ***
L12 8000 16000
L13 12000 24000
remove T1000 chips
L14 20000 40000
L15 30000 60000

You can run it in the same 4-hour time window with T10000 stacks and 20 players.

 

[BGinGA]

does anyone have a good T1500 or T2000 structure I could present as well.

Just lop off a zero from the above blinds and start with T2000 (5/10 starting blinds, and make a few minor adjustments - see below)

Color-up T5 chips after L5 and T25 chips after L8. Increase percentages and tourney times will work out the same.

T2000 starting stacks (200BB with 5/10 opening blinds):

10 x T5
10 x T25
12 x T100
1 x T500
--------------
33 chips = T2000

lvl sb bb
L1 5 10
L2 10 15
L3 15 25
L4 20 40
L5 30 60
remove T5 chips
L6 50 100
L7 75 150
L8 125 250
remove T25 chips
L9 200 400
L10 300 600
L11 500 1000 ***
L12 800 1600
L13 1200 2400
remove T100 chips
L14 2000 4000

 

[Poker Zombie]

This one works pretty good too:

https://pokersoup.com/tool/blindStructureCalculator

The Poker Soup may be one of the best blind level calculators I've seen. The only one that beats it is "Texas Holdem Poker Timer" (by Robin apps) for the iPad (also free).

Edit: Poker Soup has issues.

 

[BGinGA]

And here I thought that I was your favorite blind level calculator.....

 

[BGinGA]

This one works pretty good too:

https://pokersoup.com/tool/blindStructureCalculator

The Poker Soup may be one of the best blind level calculators I've seen.

Not sure I agree with your assessments. I ran a quick test - using the same parameters as the structure in post #5 above - and got this funky result:

1. [+0:00] -- 50 / 100
2. [+0:15] -- 100 / 200
3. [+0:30] -- 150 / 300
4. [+0:45] -- 200 / 400
5. [+1:00] -- 250 / 500
6. [+1:15] -- 350 / 700
7. [+1:30] -- 450 / 900
8. [+1:45] -- 550 / 1100
9. [+2:00] -- 650 / 1300
10. [+2:15] -- 750 / 1500
11. [+2:30] -- 850 / 1700

T25 chips don't get colored up until after L11 (!!!), it has jumps ranging from 13% to 100% increases, and contains some pretty oddball blind amounts.

Sorry, but I'll pass on this pos. No Poker Soup for you !!

 

[Poker Zombie]

Yep - still don't like Blind Valet either. The timer I linked to for the iPad is much better - have not found a broken setup yet, but nothing really beats getting down and dirty with a structure to make it do just as you want it to do.

 

[upNdown]

Not sure I agree with your assessments. I ran a quick test - using the same parameters as the structure in post #5 above - and got this funky result:

1. [+0:00] -- 50 / 100
2. [+0:15] -- 100 / 200
3. [+0:30] -- 150 / 300
4. [+0:45] -- 200 / 400
5. [+1:00] -- 250 / 500
6. [+1:15] -- 350 / 700
7. [+1:30] -- 450 / 900
8. [+1:45] -- 550 / 1100
9. [+2:00] -- 650 / 1300
10. [+2:15] -- 750 / 1500
11. [+2:30] -- 850 / 1700

T25 chips don't get colored up until after L11 (!!!), it has jumps ranging from 13% to 100% increases, and contains some pretty oddball blind amounts.

Sorry, but I'll pass on this pos. No Poker Soup for you !!

I'm not sure which parameters you're referring to, but I'm guessing it's something like a T2,000 tournament with T5 chips - This website definitely fails with that - it doesn't seem capable of handling a low chip lower than T25.

 

[Poker Zombie]

And here I thought that I was your favorite blind level calculator.....

I dislike the 25/75. I understand the logic, but think the 100% jump early is not only acceptable, but I find it useful when frequent limpers are at the table. I also prefer jumps to "slow down" to as little as 20-33% increases during the hot levels, where players are getting KO'ed rapidly. Not that there is anything wrong with consistent level increases - it's pretty and predictable, and those are noble factors to consider in a structure.

For those that have not read one of the many Blind Structure threads, this is what I mean (T10,000 x 20 player structure)

SB BB Increase
25 25
25 50 100%
50 100 100%
75 150 50%
100 200 33%
Break
125 250 25%
150 300 20%
200 400 33%
250 500 25%
Break Race off T25
300 600 20%
400 800 33%
600 1200 50%
800 1600 33%
Break Race off T100
1000 2000 25%
1500 3000 50%
2000 4000 33%
2500 5000 25%
3000 6000 20%
Break Race off T500
4000 8000 33%
5000 10000 25%
7000 15000 50%

I have a lot of limpers in my tournaments. This keeps most of them in the game through the first break because they lose very little relative to starting stack size. When we get into 20BB/starting stack territory, people tend to pick a pony and shove, so the increases are smaller on average, during that time period. Once the weak are eliminated, the average stack becomes deeper, and the blind levels can take slightly bigger jumps. When the tournament is about to bubble, it slows back down again.

I don't mind the bigger jump in the "overtime" level, because some players like to hang out and watch the game to the conclusion. This can get boring in a prolonged battle, so stepping it up - while admittedly bringing more luck to the outcome - has a benefit as well.

 

[BGinGA]

I'm not sure which parameters you're referring to, but I'm guessing it's something like a T2,000 tournament with T5 chips - This website definitely fails with that - it doesn't seem capable of handling a low chip lower than T25.

Nope, that was the Poker Soup response to a 4-hour 10-player T10000-stack tournament with T25 as the smallest chip. And it's absolutely horrible.

 

[Poker Zombie]

The more I play with it, the more errors I find it makes.