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TRK chip/dye formula revealed (1 Viewer)

Jeff in Iowa

Jeff in Iowa

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I thought some people might find this interesting. Somewhat recently hundreds of TRK chip order cards from the 1940s until the 1980s were posted onto the ChipGuide. I've been looking through those cards and noticed that that one of the cards lists their chip formula, for at least one color, Lavender. (See the bottom of the card.) Titanium was the surprise ingredient for me. By weight, there seems to be even more of it than even lead.

(10 ox cotton #3, barytes-7#8oz, Lead silicate-30oz, titanium-2#80, dry vinyl-3-oz, Lav Color, ½ oz Purple)

1602401248953.png


http://chipguide.themogh.org/cg_showpic2.php?cg=218407
 
I'm pretty sure this should be read as:

10 oz cotton
3 lb barite
7 lb 8 oz lead silicate
3 oz titanium
2 lb 8 oz dry vinyl
3 oz lavender color
0.5 oz purple color

How much clay that gets mixed with though... ?
 
RainmanTrail said:
I'm pretty sure this should be read as:

10 oz cotton
3 lb barite
7 lb 8 oz lead silicate
3 oz titanium
2 lb 8 oz dry vinyl
3 oz lavender color
0.5 oz purple color

How much clay that gets mixed with though... ?
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Yes, your reading of the formula is right and makes a lot more sense. There was more than thirty times more lead than titanium by weight in the formula. The amount of base clay that the dye was added to is missing, but we know that the final product was expected to be at least 2000 chips. If TRK chips weigh on average 10 grams, the 2000 chips would have weighed 44.1 pounds. The dye formula seems to have weighed 14.5 pounds, so the clay would have maybe weighed about 29.6 pounds.

That is all a very rough estimate, as they probably calculated for some extra chips to be made to make up for mistakes. There was also water in the clay mixture that would be lost during the pressing process, but I'm not sure on how the chemistry/physics of that works. There were probably other factors I am not thinking up.

From what I understand the clay bases that Burt, Paul-Son, and TRK all used were very similar. The metals that constitute a large amount of the weight of the chips was always added to the dyes. The tungsten in some Burt chips, and the brass in ASM/CPC chips, is part of the dye formula. The same is true of the lead in Paul-Son chips.
 
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Jeff in Iowa said:
Yes, your reading of the formula is right and makes a lot more sense. There was more than thirty times more lead than titanium by weight in the formula. The amount of base clay that the dye was added to is missing, but we know that the final product was expected to be at least 2000 chips. If TRK chips weigh on average 10 grams, the 2000 chips would have weighed 44.1 pounds. The dye formula seems to have weighed 14.5 pounds, so the clay would have maybe weighed about 29.6 pounds.

That is all a very rough estimate, as they probably calculated for some extra chips to be made to make up for mistakes. There was also water in the clay mixture that would be lost during the pressing process, but I'm not sure on how the chemistry/physics of that works. There were probably other factors I am not thinking up.

From what I understand the clay bases that Burt, Paul-Son, and TRK all used were very similar. The metals that constitute a large amount of the weight of the chips was always added to the dyes. The tungsten in some Burt chips, and the brass in ASM/CPC chips, is part of the dye formula. The same is true of the lead in Paul-Son chips.
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Burt/ASM/CPC clay is wildly different from Paulson and TRK clay, and there definitely wasn’t any tungsten in them.
 
There's also a fair bit of variance in weight across colors. I wonder how these add-ins change by color?
 
GianThaMan said:
Burt/ASM/CPC clay is wildly different from Paulson and TRK clay, and there definitely wasn’t any tungsten in them.
Click to expand...

The Burt Co. experimented with using tungsten in their mixture during the 1960s and 1970s. It was actually commonly used. In another thread I posted a Burt order card that list tungsten as an ingredient. ASM switched to just using just brass powder or no metal for the Day-Glo colors. Paul-Son added lead.

My impression, and this may be wrong, is that the clay silica material was made to be relatively neutral and unweighted, and the metals (tungsten, brass, lead, titanium, etc.) was typically only part of the dye recipes and not the base clay. I've heard this in relation to Paul-Son and Burt/ASM/CPC. That lavender recipe makes me think it might be the case for TRK too because that is a lot of lead. This is just speculation, though.
 
Jeff in Iowa said:
The Burt Co. experimented with using tungsten in their mixture during the 1960s and 1970s. It was actually commonly used. In another thread I posted a Burt order card that list tungsten as an ingredient. ASM switched to just using just brass powder or no metal for the Day-Glo colors. Paul-Son added lead.

My impression, and this may be wrong, is that the clay silica material was made to be relatively neutral and unweighted, and the metals (tungsten, brass, lead, titanium, etc.) was typically only part of the dye recipes and not the base clay. I've heard this in relation to Paul-Son and Burt/ASM/CPC. That lavender recipe makes me think it might be the case for TRK too because that is a lot of lead. This is just speculation, though.
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I didn’t know about the tungsten, that’s interesting. I do know, however, that in a certain post David Spragg mentioned that CPC clay was harder and less sticky than TRK, Paulson, and BCC clay, which is why they needed dovetail 1/2 pies and can’t do V-style spots.
 
GianThaMan said:
I didn’t know about the tungsten, that’s interesting. I do know, however, that in a certain post David Spragg mentioned that CPC clay was harder and less sticky than TRK, Paulson, and BCC clay, which is why they needed dovetail 1/2 pies and can’t do V-style spots.
Click to expand...

The CPC clay at that stage in production might be harder because of the materials in the dyes, rather than the clay itself. On the other hand, that information makes me think that maybe the type of clay CPC uses is different too.
 
Jeff in Iowa said:
The CPC clay at that stage in production might be harder because of the materials in the dyes, rather than the clay itself. On the other hand, that information makes me think that maybe the type of clay CPC uses is different too.
Click to expand...

David Spragg also told me that TRK clay was harder and that it was "cold pressed", so who knows.
 
What follows is rampant speculation on my part.

This formula may have been the entirety of these chips' material, not a list of additives to a base. The main ingredient here by weight is lead, but by volume is vinyl (i.e. PVC). Remember, clay chips are made of plastic, not clay.

This formula only weighs 14.5 pounds, which is not enough for 2000 chips, but the formula probably would have been specified in amounts used for "standard" batches and then multiplied by whatever factor was needed when actually producing the chips.

If this is in fact the complete list of ingredients for these chips, then by volume it's roughly 33% lead silicate, 19% baryte (barium sulfate), and 48% PVC, discounting the dyes (titanium [probably this means titanium dioxide], lavender, and purple) and the cotton (since there's no good way to guess at the density given it's a compressible fiber).

Thanks for going through those order cards, and thanks for posting your find! This is great stuff to know.
 
CrazyEddie said:
What follows is rampant speculation on my part.

This formula may have been the entirety of these chips' material, not a list of additives to a base. The main ingredient here by weight is lead, but by volume is vinyl (i.e. PVC). Remember, clay chips are made of plastic, not clay.

This formula only weighs 14.5 pounds, which is not enough for 2000 chips, but the formula probably would have been specified in amounts used for "standard" batches and then multiplied by whatever factor was needed when actually producing the chips.

If this is in fact the complete list of ingredients for these chips, then by volume it's roughly 33% lead silicate, 19% baryte (barium sulfate), and 48% PVC, discounting the dyes (titanium [probably this means titanium dioxide], lavender, and purple) and the cotton (since there's no good way to guess at the density given it's a compressible fiber).

Thanks for going through those order cards, and thanks for posting your find! This is great stuff to know.
Click to expand...
Then TRK chips would smell like ass.
 
CrazyEddie said:
What follows is rampant speculation on my part.

This formula may have been the entirety of these chips' material, not a list of additives to a base. The main ingredient here by weight is lead, but by volume is vinyl (i.e. PVC). Remember, clay chips are made of plastic, not clay.

This formula only weighs 14.5 pounds, which is not enough for 2000 chips, but the formula probably would have been specified in amounts used for "standard" batches and then multiplied by whatever factor was needed when actually producing the chips.

If this is in fact the complete list of ingredients for these chips, then by volume it's roughly 33% lead silicate, 19% baryte (barium sulfate), and 48% PVC, discounting the dyes (titanium [probably this means titanium dioxide], lavender, and purple) and the cotton (since there's no good way to guess at the density given it's a compressible fiber).

Thanks for going through those order cards, and thanks for posting your find! This is great stuff to know.
Click to expand...
Interesting speculation. I like your way of thinking about this.

I really have no idea what the base "clay" of these chips may have been made from. I had guessed that maybe something like calcium would likely be part of the base "clay" that would be the foundation of all TRK chips, but it is not listed. The "dry vinyl" could have been the plastic resin that was part of the chip formula, and not the dye. The only ingredient left that could have been a significant part of the base foundation is barite. Apparently, barite is notable for being an unusually heavy or dense non-metal rock mineral, apparently "used as a weighting agent in drilling muds" https://www.claysandminerals.com/materials/baryte

One thing missing from that recipe is water, which you think might be included if this was a total formula for the chip ingredients. I don't have any background in chemistry, so I can't really judge if something else important is missing.

1602639052174.png
 
I suspect that those are the complete list of solid ingredients, sans binders (water, alcohol, other, who knows for sure, and nobody's likely to talk).

I think Paulson chips were once 47% lead by volume weight, so 33% lead plus barite for early TRKs (made some 20 years earlier) plus additional binders seems a reasonable assumption.

A batch of material would be used to make several sheets of raw 'clay', which can be stored until used to punch out slugs and inserts as needed.
 
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I don't think there's any water in the formula for clay chips [edit: see note below]. They aren't actually made out of clay. They contain minerals, but those minerals aren't combined with water to make clay which is then shaped and dried to become a hardened ceramic (ceramic chips aren't ceramic either). Instead, plastic is melted and combined with additives, including some minerals. The melted plastic is cooled somewhat and formed into sheets. The chip blanks are cut out of sheets, then placed in the compression molds along with the inlays. The compression molds heat the plastic until it cures, i.e. until it solidifies rather than melting (aka thermosetting).

I can't speak authoritatively, but here's a great reference that appears to have gotten detailed information about the process from some authoritative source (alas, that source is not named): https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/3648279/game-counters-and-casino-chips-roulette-research

And here's an informative picture from that reference:

1602641888233.png



Edited to add: I have no idea whether the base formula includes any water. My point was that the basic material and process is plastic-like, rather than clay-like. Some plastic formulas might include water in their early stages - I don't know. They might use water, or various solvents, or maybe nothing more than plain raw dry melted vinyl. No idea; haven't seen any better references yet that might shed light there. But definitely TR King et al weren't making clay (i.e. mixing fine clay minerals plus water), they were melting plastic.
 
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Was always curious about how spots were made. Thanks.
 
CrazyEddie said:
I don't think there's any water in the formula for clay chips. They aren't actually made out of clay. They contain minerals, but those minerals aren't combined with water to make clay which is then shaped and dried to become a hardened ceramic (ceramic chips aren't ceramic either). Instead, plastic is melted and combined with additives, including some minerals. The melted plastic is cooled somewhat and formed into sheets. The chip blanks are cut out of sheets, then placed in the compression molds along with the inlays. The compression molds heat the plastic until it cures, i.e. until it solidifies rather than melting (aka thermosetting).

I can't speak authoritatively, but here's a great reference that appears to have gotten detailed information about the process from some authoritative source (alas, that source is not named): https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/3648279/game-counters-and-casino-chips-roulette-research

And here's an informative picture from that reference:

View attachment 552131
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This is some crazy good information. Then obv totally melted back together to form the perfect seal.
So when chips have mistake spots and freckles of other colors...and is this all done by hand? (Inserting pips and edge spots)
 
BGinGA said:
I think Paulson chips were once 47% lead by volume, so 33% plus barite for early TRKs (made some 20 years earlier) seems a reasonable assumption.
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Any chips with that much lead would be around 20g each... I think it's percent by weight.

https://lasvegassun.com/news/2007/dec/04/does-lead-make-gaming-chips-hazardous-to-your-heal/
By 2002 the company's chips had an average lead content of about .5 percent by weight and it is now about .003 percent, said Gaming Partners' chief executive officer, Gerard Charlier. A handful of the more than 70 "edge spot" colors used to create chips unique to each casino had a lead content of nearly 50 percent in 2002 but were reformulated and by 2006 the lead was removed, Charlier said.
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