Cash Game Updated Info! Help?… Can I Overcome This Casino Rake? (4 Viewers)

PokerDogDoc

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Headed to Baltimore for a business trip tomorrow (April 23) and looking to play some $1/$3 cash. Turns out The Horseshoe Baltimore is the only casino anywhere near my hotel.

Buy in is $500 max. Rake is 10% with $5 cap + $3 drop for the high hand jackpot. No flop, no drop.

I’ve never played at a casino where the jackpot drop is so high. $8 a hand seems HUGE to me and I wonder if it’s even worth playing.

I know that playing fewer hands more aggressively (preflop raises and 3-bets to win without a flop) with hands that are higher up in my range so that they can hold up and win bigger pots at showdown is always a good strategy… but $8 in a $1/$3 game? Really?

Am I crazy to play this?

Please gimme some advice ASAP!

——

*** NEW INFO ***

I called the casino back tonight and found out that the 2/5 game is a time rake of $7/30 min (+ $3 per flop for high hand jackpot)…. That seems better to me than the 1/3 game’s 10% up to $5 cap.

So if I’m seeing 3+ flops/hr of $50 or more, I’m coming out ahead, right?

I’ve never played a timed rake.

Opinions?
 
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If it’s just one day and you’re looking to play, go for it. Long term there’s probably better options/ higher stakes that would be better.

Here’s the local lower buy in options for me for comparison, looks fairly similar except there’s a no flop tax. #california…

IMG_3078.png

IMG_3077.png
 
Yes, $1/3 is beatable damn near anywhere. That rake sucks and I wouldnt want to play it for a living but on a business trip go have fun. You're going to have fun and play well, not worried about exactly how many bb/hr is profitable.

You already mentioned the big adjustments, playing tighter and more aggressive. If you're worried about rake, is the $2/5 structure better for you? Either way I wouldnt overthink it.
 
Kam said:
If it’s just one day and you’re looking to play, go for it. Long term there’s probably better options/ higher stakes that would be better.

Here’s the local lower buy in options for me for comparison, looks fairly similar except there’s a no flop tax. #california…

View attachment 1498274
View attachment 1498275
Click to expand...
Is this rake information something unique to the PokerAtlas phone app? I use the desktop browser app sometimes and have never seen this. Curious about the rake at a place near me (Encore Boston Harbor), which I heard was atrocious but haven't verified.

As to whether this game is beatable, it depends on the players. Table full of nits and OMCs, forget it. But if it plays reasonably deep and you have at least a couple spewy donators, it could be worth it.

The $3 drop is less rake and more an even-money side bet, or at least it should be even money, so it's really $5 you're losing per maxed-out hand, which is a lot but not murder. It's not so much that you should have to worry about all the money disappearing off the table like on a cruise ship. Emphasize playing big pots that go well past the rake cap, so that it's a smaller percent of the win. De-emphasize taking down small, uncontested pots.
 
Jimulacrum said:
Is this rake information something unique to the PokerAtlas phone app? I use the desktop browser app sometimes and have never seen this. Curious about the rake at a place near me (Encore Boston Harbor), which I heard was atrocious but haven't verified.

As to whether this game is beatable, it depends on the players. Table full of nits and OMCs, forget it. But if it plays reasonably deep and you have at least a couple spewy donators, it could be worth it.

The $3 drop is less rake and more an even-money side bet, or at least it should be even money, so it's really $5 you're losing per maxed-out hand, which is a lot but not murder. It's not so much that you should have to worry about all the money disappearing off the table like on a cruise ship. Emphasize playing big pots that go well past the rake cap, so that it's a smaller percent of the win. De-emphasize taking down small, uncontested pots.
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I’ve not used the desktop version, so just off my iphone app.

Here’s what I see when I put in your Encore (not 100% how accurate the info is). You need to select ‘offered games’:
IMG_3082.jpeg


Then you can select and it’ll give the specific rake info by buy in:
IMG_3083.png
 
Kam said:
I’ve not used the desktop version, so just off my iphone app.

Here’s what I see when I put in your Encore (not 100% how accurate the info is). You need to select ‘offered games’:
View attachment 1498301

Then you can select and it’ll give the specific rake info by buy in:
View attachment 1498302
Click to expand...
Wow. So they really are raking 10% to $10 plus a $2 drop out of everything. Shamelessly sucking the life out of the poker scene.

I was on the fence about checking out their poker room someday. I am no longer on the fence.
 
Jimulacrum said:
Wow. So they really are raking 10% to $10 plus a $2 drop out of everything. Shamelessly sucking the life out of the poker scene.

I was on the fence about checking out their poker room someday. I am no longer on the fence.
Click to expand...
Yeah, when me and my poker buddy were planning a meetup at Ocean’s, quickly realized we have to up the stakes otherwise it’s death by rake/ shovefest. My wife also didn’t understand why I’d play at a ‘smelly casino with cretins’ when I’ve spent a small fortune on poker chips ;)
 
@Kam and @Jimulacrum , I use the PokerAtlas app, but it’s often not up to date… I actually called the casino and spoke to the poker room to get the info I shared.

Maybe I’ll call back tonight and ask again to see if I get the same info.

All good points.
Maybe I’m over thinking this as I’ll probably be playing 2 or 3 times over the 5 days, as noted.

Just pisses me off. Greedy bastards.

Not sure I have the bankroll for 2/5, but the 1/3 may actually play closer to that and it would be a better rake percentage.
 
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PokerDogDoc said:
Just pisses me off. Greedy bastards.
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Agreed.

I haven't played in any NH cardrooms since pre-Covid for precisely the reason that the rake and promo drops have become so ridiculous.

The days of $4 rake or even $4 + $1 were already pulling a lot of money out of the game. Now it's standard to see not only $5 or $6 in rake but $2 or more in promo drops. As soon as one cardroom bumps it up, the rest take it as license to increase theirs too. I've just had enough. Even if it's technically beatable for the top 5% of players, it's too much.

I vote with my wallet (actually with a wad of money rubber-banded around a cut card).

Home games are better and more fun anyway.
 
I'm paying $10 in local underground games at 1/2 and that's beatable when the average buy in is 300. An I making a killing? No. But remember, online grinders were playing .25/.50 with a $3 cap at 5% and that was beatable against tougher competition than live poker.
 
Legend5555 said:
I'm paying $10 in local underground games at 1/2 and that's beatable when the average buy in is 300. An I making a killing? No. But remember, online grinders were playing .25/.50 with a $3 cap at 5% and that was beatable against tougher competition than live poker.
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If it's still beatable for you, that's great, but rake that high is devastating donators and players who'd otherwise be breaking even, who are now donators too. If you're able to beat that, you should be making a killing, but instead the house is making a killing. This is what I mean when I say it's sucking the life out of the game. It's like playing with a cheat who wins more than anyone else, every single session. Are there any other consistent winners in this game? Can't imagine there's room for more than one or two.

Playing $0.25/0.50 with 5% to $3 max rake is pretty bad too, but is mitigated due to the lower percent, especially in smaller pots. And of course no one's tipping or spending chips on anything else (e.g., drinks, food) in online games.
 
Jimulacrum said:
If it's still beatable for you, that's great, but rake that high is devastating donators and players who'd otherwise be breaking even, who are now donators too. If you're able to beat that, you should be making a killing, but instead the house is making a killing. This is what I mean when I say it's sucking the life out of the game. It's like playing with a cheat who wins more than anyone else, every single session. Are there any other consistent winners in this game? Can't imagine there's room for more than one or two.

Playing $0.25/0.50 with 5% to $3 max rake is pretty bad too, but is mitigated due to the lower percent, especially in smaller pots. And of course no one's tipping or spending chips on anything else (e.g., drinks, food) in online games.
Click to expand...
All I'm saying is it's beatable. If I or others had better options, I'm sure we'd take them.
 
Legend5555 said:
I'm paying $10 in local underground games
Click to expand...
Wow, that’s quite high for a straight rake. With casino jackpot drops there’s at least a chance that some of that money goes back to a player.

I’ve never played an underground game, but I suspect they can do that high of a rake because (a) there’s not a lot of competition for players to go elsewhere, and (b) just because they can… no one is going to complain too loud and risk getting busted by a raid.

Do vice cops even still do poker house raids? :unsure:
 
PokerDogDoc said:
I’ve never played an underground game, but I suspect they can do that high of a rake because (a) there’s not a lot of competition for players to go elsewhere, and (b) just because they can… no one is going to complain too loud and risk getting busted by a raid.
Click to expand...
I used to play and briefly dealt for tips in an underground game years ago. The host once explained the rake as "10% to $7 with an extra nickel at $200." This was for $0.50/1 and $1/2 games with very deep buy-in caps ($700 or $800?), though in practice folks mainly came in for $100–300.

The rake would drain the money out of the game rapidly, even faster than you'd think. I learned later, when I started dealing, that they were not only raking up to $12 per pot but pressured dealers to steal as many chips from the pot as they could get away with. It's not like there were cameras or security folks watching, and the players didn't seem to notice. (I didn't when I was playing either.)

One method was by making bad reverse change, for example, by sloppily throwing $2 from the rake rack into the pot and grabbing a $5 (net +$3), when only $2 should have come out.

Another was making an unnecessary mess out of all-in pots where the action was closed, by pulling all the bets into a messy pile in the middle, creating subterfuge to grab extra $5s unnoticed. Pretty sure the whole purpose of the "extra nickel at $200" rule was to enable this.

Oh, and the banker tried to "tax" my tips as I cashed out one night. I told him no, flat out, and he backed down. But the sheer gall, man.

Needless to say, I quickly walked away from the dealing gig and never played in any of their games again.*

I wonder sometimes if I should have gone back as a player. Not to play fair or anything, but because these guys had zero chip security and 100% deserved to get ripped off. Most of the games were run using these plastic sluggos, which you may recognize as about a half-step better than dice chips. I had a whole set of them at home.
1745361859917.jpeg

PokerDogDoc said:
Do vice cops even still do poker house raids? :unsure:
Click to expand...
One of the bigger games in this host's network (weekly $5/5 IIRC, with $20K+ in play) did end up getting busted by NYPD. They stole all the money, chips, tables, cards, everything. They clearly knew about the games and the rotation of apartments they used, and they chose to wait for a big night to raid. They arrested the organizers but ultimately released everyone, and never charged them with anything, with the understanding that they wouldn't press charges as long as no one tried to claim the seized property. Probably pocketed most of the cash and used the supplies for their own games.

Bonus chip content: At one point they used these custom ceramics from a club they ran in Boston that had shut down years earlier. Definitely more secure than the ESPN Poker Club chips. But I only saw these at a few games and then never again.

0422251853.jpg
0422251852.jpg
 
PokerDogDoc said:
.
*** SEE NEW UPDATED INFO IN ORIGINAL POST ***
I’ve never played a timed rake.
Opinions?
@Jimulacrum @Legend5555 @NotRealNameNoSir @chippitydoodah @Kam
Click to expand...
Time rake is almost always better even at low stakes at a $5 cap at $1/2, you are looking at about $100-130 an hour of the table. Divided by 8-9 players and that 12-15/hr per player. Which is about the typical time rake. Plus with time rake, no money is coming off the table (unless it's a collection time game instead of a pay up front time game).
 
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I don’t know much about the rake in a 1/3 game, but I do know that the MD Live poker room has way better action than the Baltimore shoe. Plus it’s a bit safer. Right now the shoe has 4 1/3 tables and live has 11 running. Big difference. Live is about 8 miles from the shoe. Just a thought.
 
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PokerDogDoc said:
.
*** SEE NEW UPDATED INFO IN ORIGINAL POST ***
I’ve never played a timed rake.
Opinions?
@Jimulacrum @Legend5555 @NotRealNameNoSir @chippitydoodah @Kam
Click to expand...
Timed rake is probably better, assuming ~30 hands per hour at either game (someone can check me on this).

The $3 is a wash between the two games, but the $7/player time charge would only be $63/hour coming out of play, whereas the raked game is likely pulling $100+/hour off the table at 30 hands per hour with average action.
 
Legend5555 said:
Plus with time rake, no money is coming off the table (unless it's a collection time game instead of a party up front time game).
Click to expand...
I've only played time charge maybe once, where the chips were indeed coming out of play (players posted from their stacks at every dealer push).

What's this other method? I would expect it to come out in chips either way, no?
 
Jimulacrum said:
I've only played time charge maybe once, where the chips were indeed coming out of play (players posted from their stacks at every dealer push).

What's this other method? I would expect it to come out in chips either way, no?
Click to expand...
In TX you pay for your time up front.
 
Jimulacrum said:
Out of pocket instead of chips? What I'm curious about is that you said the money doesn't come off the table with this method.
Click to expand...
Correct. You pay for your time in bulk in advance. You keep a balance of time with the room. So it's all handled off the felt. That way, no money is leaving the table during play except to tips.
 
Jimulacrum said:
The $3 is a wash between the two games, but the $7/player time charge would only be $63/hour coming out of play, whereas the raked game is likely pulling $100+/hour off the table at 30 hands per hour with average action.
Click to expand...
@Jimulacrum , Maybe I wasn’t clear… the $7 time rake is per 30 minutes, so $14/hr/person. So for an 8-player table that’s $112/hr collected by the house.

The $5 cap/hand rake would need 22-23 hands seeing a flop with a $50 pot to bring in the same for the house. That’s a hand about every 2.6-2.75 mins, which is probably about right. I’m sure they’ve done the math to make it about even, either way.

Note I have to decide if I’m up for my first 2/5 stakes game.
 
Goldfish said:
I don’t know much about the rake in a 1/3 game, but I do know that the MD Live poker room is way better action than the Baltimore shoe. Plus it’s a bit safer. Right now the shoe has 4 1/3 tables and live has 11 running. Big difference. Live is about 8 miles from the shoe. Just a thought.
Click to expand...

Is it the one in Hanover, MD?
If so, that one is 13 miles and about 20-25 minutes from the Conference Center. It might be possible for me.
 
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