Tourney When to introduce BB ante? (1 Viewer)

[SixSpeedFury]

My friend is having his annual birthday game and reached out to me to help him with a tournament structure. He would like to keep it under 5-6 hours so I suggested we include antes to get to that end time. At what level/blinds do I start introducing antes? For reference, his games are always deepstack, so players are starting with 25k(500BBs), including rebuys. He wants to cap it to 25 players. This is what I came up with:

25/50
25/75
50/100
100/200
150/300
break: color up 25s
200/400
400/800
500/1000
600/1200
800/1600
1000/2000
1500/3000
break: color up 100s and 500s
2000/4000
4000/8000
5000/10000
8000/16000
break: color up 1ks
10000/20000 (what can I add after this level?)
?
?

Anything to change/add? Where should I start introducing antes?

 

[BGinGA]

For starters, the correct answer to the question "When to introduce BB ante?" is "Never."

But in an event that utilizes a table ante posted by the big blind player, there is no reason not to start immediately at Level 1.

The only reason that tournaments with individually posted antes wait before introduction is because additional (smaller) denomination chips would be required if utilizing antes from the start. Using a table ante (equal to either the big blind or small blind) avoids this need for additional denominations.

Edit:
Your structure above is fine, but it is missing the 75/150 level and the 300/600 level. Personally, I'd drop the 500/1000 level for more uniformity (replace 5000/10000 with 6000/12000 for the same reason).

After 10k/20k, just repeat the previous sequence by adding another zero:
10k/20k
15k/30k
20k/40k
30k/60k
40k/80k
etc.

 

[raynmanas]

the correct answer to the question "When to introduce BB ante?" is "Never."

seconded.

 

[buzzmonkey]

For starters, the correct answer to the question "When to introduce BB ante?" is "Never."

Not sure if I've ever asked. Are you pro or anti ante in general? Popularity wise they tend to be mixed in the groups I play in. I play in two groups that don't use them at all, another that does and I always have when I run tourneys.

 

[BGinGA]

Not sure if I've ever asked. Are you pro or anti ante in general? Popularity wise they tend to be mixed in the groups I play in. I play in two groups that don't use them at all, another that does and I always have when I run tourneys.

I am ante-neutral. I have no issues with a properly-developed tournament blind structure, whether or not it includes (individually-posted) antes. I run and play in both ante and no-ante events.

 

[ArielVer18]

Start at Level 1. All modern tournaments have big blind antes, so it's a good idea to get used to BBA structures. BBA makes the late stage tournament less nitty, especially heads up where you almost never see preflop folds anymore. Why fold when you're given 5:1 to just limp and see a flop?

 

[SixSpeedFury]

Start at Level 1. All modern tournaments have big blind antes, so it's a good idea to get used to BBA structures. BBA makes the late stage tournament less nitty, especially heads up where you almost never see preflop folds anymore. Why fold when you're given 5:1 to just limp and see a flop?

This is my initial thought. They're a spewy bunch so adding antes will make them even more so.

 

[doublebooyah85]

I am ante-neutral. I have no issues with a properly-developed tournament blind structure, whether or not it includes (individually-posted) antes. I run and play in both ante and no-ante events.

Did you say “never” then “neutral”? I am curious of your thoughts since you’re a TD.

 

[BGinGA]

Did you say “never” then “neutral”? I am curious of your thoughts since you’re a TD.

Neutral on standard individually-posted antes in general -- they are just another tool/option when constructing a tournament blind structure, which are often designed to impact play styles and strategy to meet specific goals.

Very much opposed to the use of relatively-new tournament table antes (typically posted by just the current big-blind position), as they are inherently flawed as implemented by current rules.

 

[Legend5555]

Neutral on standard individually-posted antes in general -- they are just another tool/option when constructing a tournament blind structure, which are often designed to impact play styles and strategy to meet specific goals.

Very much opposed to the use of relatively-new tournament table antes (typically posted by just the current big-blind position), as they are inherently flawed as implemented by current rules.

Actually....

Nah, just kidding. Not going to rehash.

 

[LeLe]

Start from L1, the more dead money in play the more hands people will play

I been playing with BBA for my Cash game just to make people lossen up

 

[Legend5555]

Start from L1, the more dead money in play the more hands people will play

I been playing with BBA for my Cash game just to make people lossen up

I also play with BBA from level 1.

Not aimed at you @LeLe
In general whether you like BBA or not, it's the standard across the industry. So IMO better to play that way at home if your players have ever/will ever go to a casino to play a tourney.

 

[SixSpeedFury]

Updated blinds with times. When do I start lowering to 15 minute blinds?

(0:20) 25/50
(0:40) 25/75
(1:00) 50/100
(1:20) 75/150
(1:40) 100/200
(2:00) 150/300
(2:10) break: color up 25s
(2:30) 200/400
(2:50) 300/600
(3:10) 400/800
(3:30) 600/1200
(3:50) 800/1600
(4:10) 1000/2000
(4:30) 1500/3000
(4:40) break: color up 100s and 500s
(5:00) 2000/4000
(5:20) 3000/6000
(5:40) 4000/8000
(6:00) 6000/12000
(6:20) 8000/16000
(6:30) break: color up 1ks
(6:50) 10000/20000
(7:10) 15000/30000 [possible end time]
20000/40000
30000/60000
40000/80000
60000/120000
80000/160000
100000/200000

 

[BGinGA]

At the 4:40 hour mark, after the second color-up.

 

[SixSpeedFury]

My friend wants to cap at 24 players. Considering re-buys, how many spots should I pay out? 4 places + bubble, 5 places + bubble?

 

[LeLe]

My friend wants to cap at 24 players. Considering re-buys, how many spots should I pay out? 4 places + bubble, 5 places + bubble?

Usually top 20% get paid, so 4-5 getting paid are good

 

[stuamurr]

My friend wants to cap at 24 players. Considering re-buys, how many spots should I pay out? 4 places + bubble, 5 places + bubble?

The answer is it depends, do you want a top heavy payout structure that rewards a few players 4/5 players 20%ish of field or do you want a flattened out structure that smooths out the payments to around 7/8 places 30%ish

I prefer the latter as we would almost always chop the prize pool anyway so flattening it out reduces chops and we are a very friendly bunch but that’s not to say it would work for you and your players - they may prefer a top heavy method - you just need to play about with it till you get somewhere where most players are content (I avoid the word happy as that rare with poker players!)

 

[SixSpeedFury]

I'm going with 5 spots. I was thinking something like this:

1st place: 40%
2nd place: 30%
3rd place: 15%
4th place: 10%
5th place: 5%

Is that too lopsided?

 

[stuamurr]

I'm going with 5 spots. I was thinking something like this:

1st place: 40%
2nd place: 30%
3rd place: 15%
4th place: 10%
5th place: 5%

Is that too lopsided?

Just make sure the min payout returns more than it was possible to spend (given it’s 1 re-buy) then ladder from there and see how it goes

 

[SixSpeedFury]

Just make sure the min payout returns more than it was possible to spend (given it’s 1 re-buy) then ladder from there and see how it goes

I don't quite follow

 

[stuamurr]

I don't quite follow

So say your buy-in is £20 and a re-buy is £20 so total outlay for the player is possibly £40 make the minimum cash around £50 then they get back more than they buy in for - makes for happier players - nothing worse than making the money only to cash less than you bought in for and the players who didn’t get a re-buy cash decent from that point in

 

[buzzmonkey]

Assuming 9 to a table, I like to do 1 + 1/table. So one table would be 2 spots, 2 tables 3 spots, etc.
I also allow folks to deal to give the bubble their money back.

 

[BGinGA]

I'm going with 5 spots. I was thinking something like this:

1st place: 40%
2nd place: 30%
3rd place: 15%
4th place: 10%
5th place: 5%

Is that too lopsided?

Only change I would make is 2nd=25% 1st=45% (otherwise the % bump from 3rd to 2nd is bigger than 2nd to 1st).

Also, round the prize $ amounts to the nearest $5 to avoid the need for $1 bills.

 

[BGinGA]

Alternately, you can use either of these progressions for 5th to 1st:

1-2-4-8-16 (where each position paid is 2x the previous amount), or

1-2-4-7-11 (where each position paid is + 1/x the previous amount)

Converting those to percentages:

1st = 16/31 = 51.6%
2nd = 8/31 = 25.8%
3rd = 4/31 = 12.9%
4th = 2/31 = 6.5%
5th = 1/31 = 3.2%
or
1st = 11/25 = 44%
2nd = 7/25 = 28%
3rd = 4/25 = 16%
4th = 2/25 = 8%
5th = 1/25 = 4%

I use the latter method for our events.

 

[NoNamePokerGuy]

For starters, the correct answer to the question "When to introduce BB ante?" is "Never."

I'll be the unpopular opinion puffin and disagree. BB ante is so much easier to run the game and results in more hands per blind level than constantly sorting antes.

 

[BGinGA]

I'll be the unpopular opinion puffin and disagree. BB ante is so much easier to run the game and results in more hands per blind level than constantly sorting antes.

It's an imperfect system with inherent and avoidable flaws. There are better options which accomplish the same thing.

 

[buzzmonkey]

I've flirted with the idea of cutting the BBA in half when down to four players at the table.

 

[BGinGA]

I've flirted with the idea of cutting the BBA in half when down to four players at the table.

I do BB-size with 6-10 players, SB-size with 3-5 players, and none heads-up..... posted by the SB player, after the SB is posted.

 

[Legend5555]

It's an imperfect system with inherent and avoidable flaws. There are better options which accomplish the same thing.

I admire your conviction to fighting BBA. I'm serious. Because I don't disagree it has flaws. But given it's the industry standard and most people expect it, I just do it.

 

[BGinGA]

It's only the 'industry standard' (and that's very debatable) because too many tournament directors are lazy, cheap, or follow like sheep.