Who played this really badly, hero or villain!? (1 Viewer)

[AdamAAAA]

Okay, so just got home from a very disappointing tournament. I'm pretty sure I didn't play this too badly but would welcome your thoughts on this. I'll do it in the @DrStrange format to see if you'd have played this the same as me. Maybe not, but it's how I'll learn at least.

So, we're early in a tournament with blinds at 300/600/(25) and I'm on the button with and it's folded to me. I'm the effective stack with about 18k. The villain in this hand is one who seems to love a raise and love to call. He rarely goes to showdown either winning through big bets or folding hands. I've not played too much with him but I've noticed he rarely takes his time, he's straight in there with his play. I don't know if this is because he doesn't put much thought into his play, his play is really basic, or he's made his mind up what he's doing before it gets to him.

We're 7 handed and it folds to me. I raise to 1,400 and am called by villain in the small blind. Big blind folds.

Flop:

It's checked to me. 3,575 in the pot. What's the play?

 

[detroitdad]

Bet in the 2700 range.

 

[upNdown]

With that flop, I'd feel pretty confident the the hand, and be looking to make money, so I'd be inclined to make a continuation bet sized bet, looking for a call.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Bet 2/3 pot, or approximately 2400.

 

[MillyS]

I like chippy's bet here, 2/3 pot

 

[DrStrange]

bet 2,400 would be my choice.

 

[mummel]

Bet $3k

 

[MoscowRadio]

Like Chippy said, bet around 2/3 of the pot.

 

[BGinGA]

I'm betting 2200. 2/3-pot is fine, too.

 

[MacGrad]

Not going to get any disagreement from me -- betting between $2200 - $2600.

Here's my thoughts re: hand ranges for the villain:
Based on betting patterns, I'm thinking V is either LAG or is getting hit hard by the deck -- when he does go to showdown, is he showing decent hands? And is there a pattern to his folding (eg. is it always to river bets, or is he folding on turn bets)?

In this hand, V is calling a pre-flop raise from the SB -- let's rule out premium holdings (AA, KK, AK) that would generate a reraise and put him on drawing hands (connectors and 1-gappers) and Ax... maybe mid-to-low pairs if OP can confirm V only calls with these hands.

Flop doesn't have flush possibilities, but there are a lot of hands in my perceived range for Villain: AQ, AJ, AT, KQ, KJ, QJ, JJ, JT, J9, pocket pair... with a low possibility of , 99, and 88.

We're ahead at the moment, a lot of cards will put us behind and we only have 4 outs to improve... hence, lead out.

 

[detroitdad]

Bet in the 2700 range.

Not going to get any disagreement from me -- betting between $2200 - $2600.

Here's my thoughts re: hand ranges for the villain:
Based on betting patterns, I'm thinking V is either LAG or is getting hit hard by the deck -- when he does go to showdown, is he showing decent hands? And is there a pattern to his folding (eg. is it always to river bets, or is he folding on turn bets)?

In this hand, V is calling a pre-flop raise from the SB -- let's rule out premium holdings (AA, KK, AK) that would generate a reraise and put him on drawing hands (connectors and 1-gappers) and Ax... maybe mid-to-low pairs if OP can confirm V only calls with these hands.

Flop doesn't have flush possibilities, but there are a lot of hands in my perceived range for Villain: AQ, AJ, AT, KQ, KJ, QJ, JJ, JT, J9, pocket pair... with a low possibility of , 99, and 88.

We're ahead at the moment, a lot of cards will put us behind and we only have 4 outs to improve... hence, lead out.

Kind of what I said

 

[jemfernandez]

I'd bet slightly over 1/2 pot between 1800-2100. We hit the flop really hard and we'd like to keep marginal made hands like JT, QT, 89 in and charge all draws to call.

 

[MacGrad]

Kind of what I said

I know, but I'm getting older and my mind's going -- if I don't put the thought process down now, by the time the hand plays out, I'll be saying things like "Of course I had him on ... how could you not see that?"

 

[AdamAAAA]

Okay, so just got home from a very disappointing tournament. I'm pretty sure I didn't play this too badly but would welcome your thoughts on this. I'll do it in the @DrStrange format to see if you'd have played this the same as me. Maybe not, but it's how I'll learn at least.

So, we're early in a tournament with blinds at 300/600/(25) and I'm on the button with and it's folded to me. I'm the effective stack with about 18k. The villain in this hand is one who seems to love a raise and love to call. He rarely goes to showdown either winning through big bets or folding hands. I've not played too much with him but I've noticed he rarely takes his time, he's straight in there with his play. I don't know if this is because he doesn't put much thought into his play, his play is really basic, or he's made his mind up what he's doing before it gets to him.

We're 7 handed and it folds to me. I raise to 1,400 and am called by villain in the small blind. Big blind folds.

Flop:

It's checked to me. 3,575 in the pot. What's the play?

I bet 1,700 and villain calls.

Turn:

Board now reads: [][]

It's checked to me a second time. 6,975 in the pot. What's the play?

What I was thinking on the flip: I struggle to range this guy, I've watched him play a lot (he was sitting next to me) and he has a real 'I'll chuck it in and see what I catch' sort of player. 1,700 was on the lower side than what is suggested here, any problem with the lower bet? I figured he could maybe have an 8 or maybe even drawing to a straight. I probably should have bet more as it's hard to see my hand improving, but he has a lot of draws in his range.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Make sticky guys pay! With 7k in the pot I'd make it 4700 to go on the turn.

 

[MoscowRadio]

Again, I'm with Chippy on this one. I'm betting somewhere around 4500. We're going to have the best hand a HUGE percent of the time here, so we want to get as much in the middle while we're ahead. Also, if you bet 4500 here, you're really committed to the river as the pot will be 16k if you get called.

I'm interested in knowing how many people shove the river if an A or 9 hits and how many people check it back.

 

[DrStrange]

bet two thirds pot - though modern tournament style is for Hero to make smaller bets.

 

[BGinGA]

Five grand. I don't mind picking up the pot right now, so I lean towards the higher end of the betting range (4200-4900). I have showdown value, so probably checking back on almost any river card. Betting for value only if I fill up.

 

[thorwilliam]

Five grand. I don't mind picking up the pot right now, so I lean towards the higher end of the betting range (4200-4900). I have showdown value, so probably checking back on almost any river card. Betting for value only if I fill up.

We don't have showdown value, we have a monster. We should bet most rivers for value if checked to imo.

 

[BGinGA]

Disagree. Any ace, queen, jack, nine, eight, or any club shrinks that monster pretty effectively, potentially completing Villain straights and flushes or making trips or a better two pair. Besides a king or ten, only non-club deuces, treys, fives, and sixes are reasonably safe river cards. Even sevens are suspect. That's only 12 cards if we don't fill up, and even those may make Villain a set that beats our two pair. Top two pair isn't the monster you think it is when the opponent is check-calling to suck you in.

 

[thorwilliam]

Disagree. Any ace, queen, jack, nine, eight, or any club shrinks that monster pretty effectively, potentially completing Villain straights and flushes or making trips or a better two pair. Besides a king or ten, only non-club deuces, treys, fives, and sixes are reasonably safe river cards. Even sevens are suspect. That's only 12 cards if we don't fill up, and even those may make Villain a set that beats our two pair. Top two pair isn't the monster you think it is when the opponent is check-calling to suck you in.

Why would you be scared of an 8 on the river asuming we make a reasonable bet on the turn? Why is not 4's a "reasonable safe" river card? Assuming he is on a str draw he would make a pretty big mistake calling a big turn bet (like most here recommend), and if he did call and hit would he not most likely lead river if he hits?

 

[BGinGA]

Why would you be scared of an 8 on the river asuming we make a reasonable bet on the turn?

Assuming villain doesn't already have a set of eights, there are several other eights that are in a sticky villain's range: A8, K8, J8, T8, 98, even 87. A river 8 is NOT a good card for our hand.

Why is not 4's a "reasonable safe" river card?

Aside from holding AA, K4s, or 44, fours don't hurt us. Probably not too many other fours in villain's range, but a river 4 definitely helps villain with those holdings.

would he not most likely lead river if he hits?

Possibly, but not always. Certainly hero's flop bet was enticingly small enough to call with a draw or minor flop hit, and a smallish turn bet would be also. Villain could also be slow-playing a true monster -- AA, KK, TT, or 88..... and simply let us continue to do the betting for him.

 

[thorwilliam]

Assuming villain doesn't already have a set of eights, there are several other eights that are in a sticky villain's range: A8, K8, J8, T8, 98, even 87. A river 8 is NOT a good card for our hand.


Aside from holding AA, K4s, or 44, fours don't hurt us. Probably not too many other fours in villain's range, but a river 4 definitely helps villain with those holdings.


Possibly, but not always. Certainly hero's flop bet was enticingly small enough to call with a draw or minor flop hit, and a smallish turn bet would be also. Villain could also be slow-playing a true monster -- AA, KK, TT, or 88..... and simply let us continue to do the betting for him.

Well we could be a weak player and only bet the nuts on the river being scared of unlikely holdings, but that is hardly a winning strategy.

 

[BGinGA]

No need to get snarky and start calling names because some don't agree with your opinion.

 

[thorwilliam]

No need to get snarky and start calling names because some don't agree with your opinion.

Maybe it was a bit snarky, but not sure what name calling you are reffering to. I don't care if you disagree with me, but I think you are giving up on a lot of value playing so careful on the river.

 

[trever]

I would have bet closer to 3/4 of the pot OTF. As a preflop button raiser, c-betting the flop really doesn't narrow our range at all so you might as well get paid when you hit.

Now that we have a safe, but scary turn, bet for value, $5000. If your opponent is chasing, make him pay for the river card.

 

[MacGrad]

How's this for a unique strategy: I'm checking the turn.

I don't like the OP's flop bet -- usually, I'd believe that V hit part of the flop to call our bet, or be on a straight draw... but since the bet was relatively small, the aggressive V is likely calling with a wider range of hands.

Turn shouldn't have been a scare card, but the small flop bet allowed 44 to come along cheaply and an Xc draw is in play (and even some Xc hands).

V also hasn't shown much aggression this hand... since he's been avoiding showdowns and winning hands with big bets, I'm expecting him to make his move on the river. We still have over 14K in chips, and I don't want to be pot-committed to this hand in the event a bad river card shows up.

Besides, checking allows us to control river action somewhat -- if another junk card or a K/T appears, we can bet out or raise a Villain's bet; if a scare card appears, see how it fits in our likely range for Villain, and check / call / fold accordingly.

If you're worried about losing value on the turn, we can regain it (and more) -- if Villain check-raises our river bet, then we can come over the top if we still believe our hand is good. Villain will have to assume we have a monster (raise pre-flop, bet flop, bet river) and that our turn check was to induce a bluff or bet; as a result, that reraise may be able to get him to fold some better 2-pair hands and lower straights that might otherwise have beaten us. If he calls the reraise and has us beat, then more power to him -- we would have lost the same amount by betting the turn and committing to the river.

 

[thorwilliam]

How's this for a unique strategy: I'm checking the turn.

I don't like the OP's flop bet -- usually, I'd believe that V hit part of the flop to call our bet, or be on a straight draw... but since the bet was relatively small, the aggressive V is likely calling with a wider range of hands.

Turn shouldn't have been a scare card, but the small flop bet allowed 44 to come along cheaply and an Xc draw is in play (and even some Xc hands).

V also hasn't shown much aggression this hand... since he's been avoiding showdowns and winning hands with big bets, I'm expecting him to make his move on the river. We still have over 14K in chips, and I don't want to be pot-committed to this hand in the event a bad river card shows up.

Besides, checking allows us to control river action somewhat -- if another junk card or a K/T appears, we can bet out or raise a Villain's bet; if a scare card appears, see how it fits in our likely range for Villain, and check / call / fold accordingly.

If you're worried about losing value on the turn, we can regain it (and more) -- if Villain check-raises our river bet, then we can come over the top if we still believe our hand is good. Villain will have to assume we have a monster (raise pre-flop, bet flop, bet river) and that our turn check was to induce a bluff or bet; as a result, that reraise may be able to get him to fold some better 2-pair hands and lower straights that might otherwise have beaten us. If he calls the reraise and has us beat, then more power to him -- we would have lost the same amount by betting the turn and committing to the river.

We need to extract value on the turn. There's alot of potential draws that will pay off a bet on the turn as well as other kings or tens. If we check the turn it will be very hard to get all the money in on the river.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Also villain doesn't sound like the kind of player to fold two pair or straight hands.

 

[Kain8]

You know how hard it is flop top two, bet, and get called? Bomb this turn so we can get all-in on any decent river.