Why has 7 card stud died out and what did the old timers like so much about the game? (1 Viewer)

[frondaro]

hello, first time poster here!

This is NOT a quick question but it has been on my mind for a while and I can't help but wonder if this represents how gambling or at least poker, has changed fundamentally in America

I read on Wikipedia that 7 card stud was at one point the most popular card game in America in both casinos and home games, now the joke is if you want to find a 7 card stud game your best chance is a nursing home.

I did a little bit of research about why 7 card stud declined in casinos and the answer seems straight forward, compared to holdem, slower game, smaller stakes, which means less money over a longer period of time for the casino on rakes

As far as why 7 card stud declined in home games the prevailing attitude seems to be the similar to the casinos, slower game, slower hands, smaller stakes, and (in my opinion the number 1 reason) it's much much harder to learn and play then holdem

But my question is this, what did the old timers like about this game that other games didn't provide?

My theory is this, 7 card stud is to Texas holdem what hearts of iron 4 is to call of duty, one is much harder, takes much longer to learn, much more involved, and is played by far less people then the other

Basically 7 card stud is the hardcore version of holdem

But I can't help but wonder if 7 card stud provided other benefits?, because it was slower and the bets were smaller, I wonder if that alone helped keep out idiots who went all in before the flop? That because I was a longer smaller game it helped you work the man you were against rather then just game?

I can't help but wonder what was it about 7 card stud that old timers liked?

And I can help but wonder how if America's change from stud to holdem represents in a broader sense how America gambles at large?

What do you think?

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

NLHE is more popular because it has more chances to bluff, more approachable game play (easy to learn hard to master), and is better for TV. In casinos, they want more bets and more money in the pot so they can make more money. Playing 7 card stud with the greatest generation would feel like bingo for many players used to holdem.

I disagree with NLHE being less hardcore, sounds like something someone in your old folks home would say. Its no limit, the swings are bigger, the bets are bigger, and there's more pressure and nuance. If anything its the other way around: 7 card stud has the guard rails, not NLHE.

I love stud but Im pushing back on your characterization that holdem represents some type of decline in player; those idiots going all in before the flop are incredibly exploitable for players, it shouldn't frustrate you much, eh? Id say it was the opposite. No limit games allow you to bluff and work the man WAY more.

 

[ekricket]

I think the #1 reason why Holdem is popular is because even after you fold you can see how your hand would have played out if it goes to showdown. You are still interested.

In the stud games once you fold the order of cards is much harder to follow, and if you want to see how your hand would have done you have to rewind a bunch of dealing in your head. Once you fold your interest in the cards is over.

 

[warma]

 

[AH77]

Hello and welcome!

Limit games in general have died out once no-limit became commonplace. Your post did get me to thinking though. Stud with progressively higher betting rounds each street would be pretty cool.

 

[HughDrackman]

I play variations of 7 card stud at my home game. High / low Chicago, Follow the Queens, and 7 card no-peek are all stud games, but they add extra levels of strategy and betting that traditional 7 stud doesn’t have.

I agree with the commenters here about why NLH has taken over in popularity. Faster, more extreme, players more involved in the hand once they have folded, etc. The reason these other variations work in my home game is because they keep the players involved in the hand beyond the traditional format. More excitement, more opportunities for betting, and more ways to turn your fortunes around.

But none of them would work for tv, so you’ll not see them in a casino or on YouTube at all.

 

[Mojo1312]

But I can't help but wonder if 7 card stud provided other benefits?, because it was slower and the bets were smaller, I wonder if that alone helped keep out idiots who went all in before the flop?

I was going to give an illuminating thought provoking response, but then you had to insult me.

 

[grebe]

hello, first time poster here!

Welcome!

This is NOT a quick question but it has been on my mind for a while and I can't help but wonder if this represents how gambling or at least poker, has changed fundamentally in America

Change is inevitable. Before stud, draw and straight poker were the games played.

I read on Wikipedia that 7 card stud was at one point the most popular card game in America in both casinos and home games, now the joke is if you want to find a 7 card stud game your best chance is a nursing home.

I did a little bit of research about why 7 card stud declined in casinos and the answer seems straight forward, compared to holdem, slower game, smaller stakes, which means less money over a longer period of time for the casino on rakes

As far as why 7 card stud declined in home games the prevailing attitude seems to be the similar to the casinos, slower game, slower hands, smaller stakes, and (in my opinion the number 1 reason) it's much much harder to learn and play then holdem

But my question is this, what did the old timers like about this game that other games didn't provide?

It is the game they grew up playing. If all of a sudden Omaha was the only game you could find, all the holdem only players would be whining about the good old days.

My theory is this, 7 card stud is to Texas holdem what hearts of iron 4 is to call of duty, one is much harder, takes much longer to learn, much more involved, and is played by far less people then the other

Basically 7 card stud is the hardcore version of holdem

you lost me there.

But I can't help but wonder if 7 card stud provided other benefits?, because it was slower and the bets were smaller, I wonder if that alone helped keep out idiots who went all in before the flop? That because I was a longer smaller game it helped you work the man you were against rather then just game?

Why are the bets smaller? 7 stud actually has an additional betting round. You can play both at NL, PL, or L. If you are comparing limit stud to NLHE, you are doing it wrong. I could compare 100/200 limit stud to 1/2 NLHE and say the exact same thing.

I can't help but wonder what was it about 7 card stud that old timers liked?

And I can help but wonder how if America's change from stud to holdem represents in a broader sense how America gambles at large?

What do you think?

Holdem is huge now....and poker in general....because of Moneymaker, short and simple. You take an average joe taking down millions on ESPN, beating all the pros for everyone to see, and it changes things. How this changes gambling in America? I don't know. Maybe it forced it to more mainstream and accepted. I don't think this is because of holdem and not stud....it probably has more to do with tournaments being on TV. The legalization of sports betting is probably way bigger to the average American than what form of poker is played these days.

 

[ekricket]

Before all this shit there was Gin, Pan, and Faro. Nothing could be simpler than Faro.

 

[Legend5555]

It's entirely to do with ESPNs main event coverage starting in 2001ish. Obv when they decided to show hole cards, it upped things to another level. For the casual audience, Hold Em was easy to explain and follow and required the least effort from a production standpoint to show the hole cards and community cards.

It's not just Stud either. Limit poker has seen a big decline since 2003. It's not as exciting or drama filled. And that's what casual people think is interesting: the excitement and drama.

Mixed games are having a bit of a resurgence, but a lot more esoteric variants are getting the most popularity. Like the split pot draw games and Omaha/Dramaha variants.

I for one live mixed games and limit poker. But their are downsides. Games like stud and Omaha take much longer on a hand by hand basis. And as such it can be very boring for casual players looking for a quick paced exciting game. When my primary focus is making money, you better believe I'm playing NLHE. When I just want to have fun with making some money as a bonus, then I'll play mix.

 

[Ben8257]

Fantastic first post @frondaro ! There are still a few solid stud players around and IMO those are the players you need to watch out for most! The ones that understand the math of card counting and basically the mentality of the long haul (limit poker). Back before everyone wanted to be Matt Damon sitting across from ole Mr. Malkovich...

Tons of people give the "fame" of NLHE to Moneymaker but I personally believe it was Rounders that came out 5 years before Chris's "big run" ask all your poker buddies what their favorite poker movie is. 70% rounders 28% Casino Royale %2 Baeney and Friends because they have no idea what you are talking about "poker movie" listen we all have "that guy in our games"

Even here on the forum @Lil Tuna and @ChaosRock for example will call 7 stud variants over Omaha variants every time... they know their edge on the game as many have all but forgot the mechanics of Stud playing.

It is not the sit back, drink and jam game that holdem has all but become. You have to keep your head in the game and pay attention the entire time, I would say the majority of poker players today do not want to dedicate that much attention to the game.

Whilst I still play with a group that calls Razz or Follow the Queen, the only true remmanance of stud that most of us play now is "Tahoe Pitch n Roll" I am a huge fan of Hi/low stud, not a huge fan of declare but brings another angle to the game (all stud games in our group are played declare) and the oldest guy in our group is NOT of retirement age yet... so hard to find a game? Sure, but there are still a few around that embrace what poker once was.

I could compare 100/200 limit stud to 1/2 NLHE and say the exact same thing.

Wowzer brotha man, I am pretty sure you can go to any casino and sit down woth $500 and play $1/$2 NLHE, to properly play $100/$200 limit stud would take minimum what $4,000 - $5,000, definitely not the same stakes... but maybe I am missing the point on that one.

 

[Machine]

Welcome!​

We were able to spread 15/30 7 stud hi at the casino recently been going for ~4 weeks or so.

Its a good game, lots of information and is fairly straightforward. Personally, I prefer 7 stud 8OB, its more fun. (Variants are a blast, super stud / pineapple stud)

NLH is very boring, its meant to be played for super high stakes, or a time boxed tournament, but in this everyone gets a trophy world its meant to drawl people in.

We had an underground game last year lasted for about 10 months, then the house guys went different ways and it broke, but the players keep asking for it.

 

[MrCatPants]

Beyond the reasons already mentioned - stud plays better limit, I think it's more limit poker that went by the way side (no "big swings" or made for TV moments) vs. stud.

 

[ekricket]

Its a good game, lots of information and is fairly straightforward. Personally, I prefer 7 stud 8OB, its more fun. (Variants are a blast, super stud / pineapple stud)

Not singling you out, just needed a quote.

Does everything we do in life have to be about the fun?
Seems like there’s a lot we do to things because they aren’t “fun”.

 

[Machine]

Not singling you out, just needed a quote.

Does everything we do in life have to be about the fun?
Seems like there’s a lot we do to things because they aren’t “fun”.

Well, I typically don't play the lotto because, while it can be fun, maths says it likely to be a money sink for me, the fun ratio is off for me.

I can meet my needs financially, and let me tell you, often work isn't fun, answering your question directly with a NO, but if you want my hard-earned cash via gambol, yeah it needs to be fun.

I'm not grinding out a living via poker. If I was, I would take a different approach. I'd play super stud over Ohama 2 or 3 out 5 times given the choice, because of the fun. I don't need more kids, but we practice often, because its fun!

 

[grebe]

Wowzer brotha man, I am pretty sure you can go to any casino and sit down woth $500 and play $1/$2 NLHE, to properly play $100/$200 limit stud would take minimum what $4,000 - $5,000, definitely not the same stakes... but maybe I am missing the point on that one.

That was EXACTLY my point. Saying HoldEm has bigger bets than stud makes no sense. It all depends on the structure and stakes.

 

[SteveEH]

High Level:

-Stud is complex and slower.
-Hold'em is easy and faster.
-Easy and fast brings more players (gamblers) to poker.
-Poker players adapt to hold'em because it's more profitable.

I liked it because I feel rewarded when I make the correct decision, regardless of how long it takes or how much money is involved (to a certain extent obviously).

I miss stud.

 

[Lil Tuna]

I’d mostly agree with what everyone here has mentioned thus far. I also believe that because the current world we live in is so“instant gratification” driven, that most of the newer players of the last 20 years or so lack the ability and or want to acquire the patience and discipline needed to play and win at 7 card stud.

 

[gmunny]

When I first started playing poker in California card rooms, the only card games allowed where 5 Card Draw High (Jacks better to Open), 5 Card Low Ball or Pan 9. They didn't even have stud. I think its just a natural processing to more "action" related games. I don't think I played Hold Em in our home game to much later and it was probably due to Rounders and Moneymaker.

A few things to add to the above differences between 7stud and NLHE.

> with only 2 hole cards, Hold em allows for more players at a table vs 7-stud.

> as a player, Stud requires more memory discipline because if you don't remember all the cards folded, you may be drawing dead to a flush or straight. This is the part that i always struggled at as my memory is crap and i can barely remember my own hole cards.

I don't miss stud ... though i dog a couple of rounds in when we play HORSE

 

[dennis63]

Marketing is key, and Hold 'Em is particularly suited for quick statistical analysis by commentators. Knowing everyone's cards and seeing rapid statistical odds of winning on TV can add excitement and empower the viewers. They know things that the players don't, making them the ultimate "armchair experts."

Other (older) versions of poker did not need -- and don't have -- these aspects.

And it feels odd to have to say it, but previous generations viewed playing cards predominantly as a social activity, or at least an excuse to do some social drinking. They weren't trying to take down Aunt Edna.

 

[ekricket]

I’d mostly agree with what everyone here has mentioned thus far. I also believe that because the current world we live in is so“instant gratification” driven, that most of the newer players of the last 20 years or so lack the ability and or want to acquire the patience and discipline needed to play and win at 7 card stud.

It’s not “fun”. There’s no bells or lights.


Also in stud games it’s important to watch your opponents and read into their cards what they are doing.
In holdem you put on sunglasses, headphones, and a hoody so you can ignore all the other players. Fuck them, this is YOUR time.

 

[pltrgyst]

NLHE is more popular because it has more chances to bluff, more approachable game play (easy to learn hard to master), and is better for TV. In casinos, they want more bets and more money in the pot so they can make more money. Playing 7 card stud with the greatest generation would feel like bingo for many players used to holdem.

I disagree with NLHE being less hardcore, sounds like something someone in your old folks home would say. Its no limit, the swings are bigger, the bets are bigger, and there's more pressure and nuance. If anything its the other way around: 7 card stud has the guard rails, not NLHE.

I love stud but Im pushing back on your characterization that holdem represents some type of decline in player; those idiots going all in before the flop are incredibly exploitable for players, it shouldn't frustrate you much, eh? Id say it was the opposite. No limit games allow you to bluff and work the man WAY more.

Agreed mostly, but 7 stud is still my favorite game, by far. It requires a lot more discipline to play profitably than does hold'em.

BTW, your thread title should be "what do old timers like so much..." -- we're not all dead yet.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Agreed mostly, but 7 stud is still my favorite game, by far. It requires a lot more discipline to play profitably than does hold'em.

Totally fair. Im not a pro, I play like a goon so discipline isn't one of my top 5 adjectives for the game selection

 

[CapNcrunchPoker]

Great first post, I’ve enjoyed reading this thread and love the subject matter. A lot of solid answers for OPs questions.

First of all, I think it’s all limit games that have seen a major decline in activity in the last 20 years in general it’s not just stud. There’s something exhilarating about the “no limit” part that gives the game more appeal than fixed limit games.

There are a few stud games in my area at different casinos. Some only run certain days. the poker rooms definitely aren’t making nearly as much off these games since none of them are raked. They’re all time based and you pay at the beginning of every dealer push. The closest casino to me has a 6/12 O/S8 mix game that plays nearly every day. It’s a fuck ton of fun, but not the place you go if you’re trying to make some quick cash.

From what I’ve seen, there are a ton of people out there that have literally no interest in anything but NLHE games simply because they don’t have the patience to learn other poker formats. Teach a guy NLHE and he’ll go crazy for it. He’ll learn PLO because he’s familiar with the flop, turn, and river - but introducing a new format is something a lot of newer players just can’t stomach (and god forbid explaining H/L) even players with a good amount of experience in NL games will steer away from playing mixed games specifically because of the fact they lack experience and want quick money playing hold em because it’s all they know so they think they have an edge there. It seems like more people are staring to expand though.

Personally, I love mixed games and especially fixed limit games in tournament format. I only started playing circuit events this year but I do firmly believe I would win a WSOP bracelet in a mixed game before a NL game despite the fact I have way more experience playing hold em.

 

[arch3r]

I don't need more kids, but we practice often, because its fun!

I practice playing solitaire everyday.

 

[slisk250]

For me the game is boring. I could list 20 other Circus games I’d rather play.

 

[RichMahogany]

For me the game is boring. I could list 20 other Circus games I’d rather play.

Stud gets called occasionally in our DC games. Don't hate stud, don't love it either and am happy it rarely gets called.

 

[legend672]

I was a 7 stud player. If I could be half as Good at hold em, I’d be ecstatic. No one want to play it anymore though. To me 7 stud and 5 card draw are pure poker At its best. the 2-4 stud game at Suffolk Downs was exciting stuff.

 

[RocAFella1]

Four letters: ADHD.

 

[Goldfish]

We used to include it in our game rotation, but played it pot limit (and hi lo). It was an absolute sh*t show. The antes making the initial bet bigger combined with the extra round of betting made the game play proportionally bigger than the rest of the games. People were getting crushed in this game. So we bounced it from the rotation. Still play the game sometimes in a limit format but people would much rather see flops.