Tourney Would you reduce this T10000 in duration? (1 Viewer)

[Quad Johnson]

Howdy all.

For those that remember my posts about my T10k rebuy tourney I was planning, it went off without a hitch. While I didn't mind the time, starting at 7PM and finishing about 12:30AM. When getting feedback, some of my players would like it to wrap up a bit sooner.

How would you go about doing so without making it jarring?

This particular tourney, most played pretty tight. We had 15 players total. We only had 4 rebuys during the rebuy period but almost everyone did the double add-on during the first break after level 2 (break with final rebuys/add-ons) then we are done with rebuys, aside from one guy that bought in and was one and done and left. Total prize pool $820.

Starting stacks 10k.
Unlimited Rebuys for first two levels.
Anyone at the table is permitted a double rebuy/add-on in break 3 regardless of rebuy count or current stack size.

1: 50/100 45 min
2: 75/150 45 min
BREAK 1 - 15 min - last of rebuys/add-ons
3: 100/200 30 min
4: 150/300 30 min
5: 200/400 20 min
BREAK 2 - 10 min - Color Up 25s
6: 300/600 20 min
8: 400/800 20 min
9: 600/1200 15 min
10: 800/1600 15 min
11. 1000/2000 15 min
BREAK 3 - 10 min - Color Up 100s
12. 1500/3000 15 min
13. 2000/4000 12 min
14. 2500/5000 12 min
15. 3000/6000 12 min
16. 4000/8000 12 min
17. 6000/12000 12 min
18. 8000/16000 10 min
BREAK 4 - 5 min - Color Up 500s and 1000s
19. 10000/20000 10 min
20. 15000/30000 10 min
21. 20000/40000 10 min
22 25000/50000 10 min

Now, my players are pretty split on whether they liked the duration. I personally enjoyed it, I thought it was a good length tourney for a first place prize of $440.

@Mojo1312 was good enough to help me with this blind structure. Hitting the blind levels nicely and without huge increases either. I really like this progression.

After I had already busted out and we did the color up for break 3, I looked at the clock and saw it was just after midnight. I remember thinking to myself "Wow, we're at that point of the tourney where fatigue is setting in and it's getting harder to focus (I think we were 4 or 5 handed by that point). I didn't think anything of it, it's part of a tourney.

A couple of my guys pointed out to me that they would prefer if it wrapped up a little sooner. A couple others I chatted with for feedback told me of those that want it wrapped up sooner "It's an effin tournament. Don't sign up for a marathon if you're going to quit a mile in."

So, my question for y'all is. Do you bother trying to speed it up?

If so, would you change the structure at all?

I personally think the best way to shorten this tourney, while also being a little sadistic to my whiners , would be to reduce the starting stacks from 100 BB's to 50 BB's... my logic for this would be, it's a rebuy tournament. Most were playing pretty tight and we only had 4 rebuys before the add-on break. a 50 BB starting stack would ensure more rebuys which is the point. I'm of the opinion if there's hardly any rebuys, why not just up the buy-in and just do a regular freezeout?

So you attempt to try to reduce the duration or just let it ride?

 

[BGinGA]

Drop L13, change L1/L2 times to 40 minutes, and change L8 to 15 minutes. That will slice off about a half hour of total time, doesn't really affect the progression or play, and nobody will notice any of the changes (except maybe the shorter overall tournament length).

Another adjustment I'd make is dropping the double add-on, or at least making it at most a single add-on.

Adding that many extra chips to the table is easily adding an extra 1/2 hour of time to the event, and in many ways nulifies any strategic advantages gained by players during the first two levels (so arguably why even play those levels?).


One thing I wouldn't do is cut the stacks in half to promote more re-buys. My preference is for a well-structured event that also offers re-buys as suckout/cooler protection. Typical re-buy rate in those situations is around 25%-33%, which is what you experienced.

 

[upNdown]

a 50 BB starting stack would ensure more rebuys which is the point.

Is it?
Why?

I'm of the opinion if there's hardly any rebuys, why not just up the buy-in and just do a regular freezeout?

That sounds good to me.

I don’t even know what you mean by “double add-on,” but that sort of thing annoys me for home tournamemts. In my opinion, addons are for casinos to generate more revenue, and aren’t needed for home games.
Rebuys are good for home tournaments, to make sure somebody doesn’t get frozen out after 15 minutes, but again, I don’t think generating multiple rebuys should be the point. Unless your goal is to have people play like maniacs.

I wouldn’t recommend reducing the starting stack to 50 bigs for a no limit game. That sounds terrible.
One way you could save time is by reducing those first two levels - 45 minutes seems unnecessarily long. You could make the first four levels 25 minutes each, save 40 minutes, and maybe get it done before midnight.

 

[Quad Johnson]

Is it?
Why?

What is the point of an unlimited rebuy tournament at a home game, if not to encourage rebuys and beef up the prize pool? Just my thoughts. This was my first crack at this format, emulating a home game many of us attended long ago that we found very fun. I also thought about reducing the total rebuys to just 1 with the option to do your rebuy as an addon at the first break, if you wish.

I also didn't realize a 25-33% was the typical rate of rebuys.

Also, I prefer standard freezeout with maybe one rebuy per person with a cut off time but my a chunk of my group wanted to try this unlimited rebuy ordeal. So getting feedback here as well to decide if I want to keep it, what the change for the future, etc.

 

[upNdown]

I also didn't realize a 25-33% was the typical rate of rebuys.

That varies, based on format. I play a regular tournament where the average rate of rebuys is 150% - it all depends on what you want, I guess. And if that’s what you and your players like, great. But like Dave said, all those rebuys and addons are lengthening the tournament.

 

[BGinGA]

What is the point of an unlimited rebuy tournament at a home game, if not to encourage rebuys and beef up the prize pool? Just my thoughts.

I also didn't realize a 25-33% was the typical rate of rebuys.

As mentioned earlier, a sound structure will only generate a limited number of re-buys due to suck-outs/coolers (unless you have manic players, or the buy-in amount is too small), regardless if it is unlimited re-buys or one-per-player.

A poor structure -- one with insufficient starting chips, or blinds that increase too frequently or too massively, or buy-in/re-buy costs that are not deemed significant by the player base -- will generate re-buy numbers far in excess of that 25%-33% rate; sometimes as high as 5-6 times as many.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Another adjustment I'd make is dropping the double add-on, or at least making it at most a single add-on.

Adding that many extra chips to the table is easily adding an extra 1/2 hour of time to the event, and in many ways nulifies any strategic advantages gained by players during the first two levels (so arguably why even play those levels?).

Agreed, though for certain groups that might be desired. My Tuesday night group is very low buy-in and mostly casual players - it's as much about networking and drinking beer as it is poker for many people. For that group, we intentionally start very deep (200bb with bustout protection of another 200bb). While it's not the best structure for stronger players, the idea is to make sure that nobody busts out too early and has to go home, and it seems to work well.

One thing I wouldn't do is cut the stacks in half to promote more re-buys. My preference is for a well-structured event that also offers re-buys as suckout/cooler protection. Typical re-buy rate in those situations is around 25%-33%, which is what you experienced.

The bustout protection I mentioned above is what I call a "pre-buy." Your buy-in includes your starting stack and a single pre-paid rebuy/add-on. Other than that we don't allow any other rebuys or add-ons. It was a compromise made a few years ago between those who were adamantly opposed to rebuys and those who wanted them, and it mainly serves as a mechanism to ensure that if you get coolered or screw up early, you don't have to go home.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Also, my rule of thumb for estimating tournament length is the 5% rule.

Figure out the total chips in play based on starting stack, number of players and estimated number of rebuys. When the big blind reaches 5% of the total chips in play, that's when the tournament will usually end, give or take a round.

In my experience this is reasonably accurate long-term, though it can vary by as much as a couple rounds from game to game.

 

[BGinGA]

Agreed, though for certain groups that might be desired. My Tuesday night group is very low buy-in and mostly casual players - it's as much about networking and drinking beer as it is poker for many people. For that group, we intentionally start very deep (200bb with bustout protection of another 200bb). While it's not the best structure for stronger players, the idea is to make sure that nobody busts out too early and has to go home, and it seems to work well.



The bustout protection I mentioned above is what I call a "pre-buy." Your buy-in includes your starting stack and a single pre-paid rebuy/add-on. Other than that we don't allow any other rebuys or add-ons. It was a compromise made a few years ago between those who were adamantly opposed to rebuys and those who wanted them, and it mainly serves as a mechanism to ensure that if you get coolered or screw up early, you don't have to go home.

We use the pre-buy concept, also. T10k starting stacks are issued with a 10k plaque that doesn't play, but can be redeemed anytime between hands for 10k in playable tourney chips. We leave it up to the individual how to best manage their resources.

 

[Quad Johnson]

Agreed, though for certain groups that might be desired. My Tuesday night group is very low buy-in and mostly casual players - it's as much about networking and drinking beer as it is poker for many people. For that group, we intentionally start very deep (200bb with bustout protection of another 200bb). While it's not the best structure for stronger players, the idea is to make sure that nobody busts out too early and has to go home, and it seems to work well.



The bustout protection I mentioned above is what I call a "pre-buy." Your buy-in includes your starting stack and a single pre-paid rebuy/add-on. Other than that we don't allow any other rebuys or add-ons. It was a compromise made a few years ago between those who were adamantly opposed to rebuys and those who wanted them, and it mainly serves as a mechanism to ensure that if you get coolered or screw up early, you don't have to go home.

I really really like this. Thanks for the post. I'm going to bounce this off for feedback but this sounds like a great middle ground.

 

[Mojo1312]

I am trying to get a fuller picture.

Both the buy-in and the add-on is for 10000 chips, correct?

If so, then the number of chips in play totaled around 330,000. To my understanding the tournament ended at near the 2500/5000 level, which seems unusual unless someone had built up a dominating stack.

If you don't mind me asking, what is your pay-out structure?

 

[Quad Johnson]

I am trying to get a fuller picture.

Both the buy-in and the add-on is for 10000 chips, correct?

If so, then the number of chips in play totaled around 330,000. To my understanding the tournament ended at near the 2500/5000 level, which seems unusual unless someone had built up a dominating stack.

If you don't mind me asking, what is your pay-out structure?

Yes. At the first break, one player suggested a double add on (super tight and passive, dwindled down to about 4k by the break) and other players were all for it since it's more money in the pool then several players did the double add-on. We had $820 in the pool at $20 per 10k so 410k. I gave out early bird bonus chips to entice early arrival and that was about 10k for 420k chips total.

You are correct, the game ended in the 2500/5000 level. When the final table began with 9 players (level 11 - 1000/2000), one guy with a big a stack caught a hot run of cards and proceeded to bust everyone at the final table. He won a 4 way pot where he busted three short stacks in one go in the first few hands. He took a commanding chip lead and never let go.

I did top 3 paid.

1st. $440
2nd. $260
3rd. $120

 

[Schmendr1ck]

We use the pre-buy concept, also. T10k starting stacks are issued with a 10k plaque that doesn't play, but can be redeemed anytime between hands for 10k in playable tourney chips. We leave it up to the individual how to best manage their resources.

We're the same - 10K plus a rebuy chip - but you can only redeem the chip if you go busto or at the end of the rebuy period (when it becomes a 10K add-on).

 

[Mojo1312]

Addressing re-buys and add-ons.

An add-on equal to the starting stack allows players to re-buy into the game for half price.

My experience with re-buys in two table tourneys is that they diminish in frequency as players become accustomed to each others playing styles. Whereas in larger tournaments players are willing to take bigger risks in their effort to double up during the re-buy period so that they may be in a better position to run deep.

Regarding your game, I see a couple of potential red flags. Without question, the current structure is not going to work for your group over the long term.
The buy-in / add-on is too cheap if players are pushing for a double add-on. You may want to consider increasing the price for each to $25.

Give short stacks the option of forfeiting their chips if they wish to buy a full stack at the break. (They would still be eligible for the add-on.) This takes care of the double re-buy plea.

The following structure is more aggressive in the early levels and leaves players with less time to build their stack before the break, which will likely lead to a greater number of re-buys. I think this structure will make the game more interesting, due to the quicker pace early on and the greater amount of play in the middle third of the tournament.

Expect the tournament to last until 12:30 or a little later with your current group.

1: 50/100 25 min
2: 75/150 25 min
3: 100/200 25 min
BREAK 1 - 15 min - last of rebuys/add-ons
- Color Up 25s
4: 100/300 20 min
5: 200/400 20 min
6: 300/600 20 min
8: 400/800 20 min
BREAK 2 - 10 min -
9: 600/1200 20 min
10: 800/1600 20 min
11. 1000/2000 20 min
12. 1500/3000 15 min
13. 2000/4000 15 min
BREAK 3 - 10 min - Color Up 100s and 500s
14. 2000/5000 15 min
15. 3000/6000 15 min
16. 4000/8000 15 min
17. 6000/12000 15 min
18. 8000/16000 15 min
19. 10000/20000 15 min
BREAK 4 (If necessary)
- 5 min - Color up 1000s
20. 15000/30000 10 min
21. 20000/40000 10 min
22 25000/50000 10 min

I like to say, know your audience when it comes to hosting.

Are your players going to continue coming back if you are paying out the top 20% of the field? And would a 50/30/20 pay-out be better for the game?

 

[Quad Johnson]

Are your players going to continue coming back if you are paying out the top 20% of the field? And would a 50/30/20 pay-out be better for the game?

We usually do and most prefer cash. I decided to do tournament once a month with the rest of the month cash just to mix things up.

I used to do 4 spots paid and more generous payouts to lower places only to be met with complaints. Many see the tourney as kind of a lottery in that they want big top heavy prize pools.

For my first tournament a few months ago (one table) I did 3 spots paid.

2 months ago, it was our 16 player tourney and I did 4 spots paid with prizes a bit more top heavy.

For the future my plans will be:
3 places paid for the first 9 players
1 place paid for each additional 9 players.

I won't open up the 4th spot unless 18 seats are filled, so 17 would pay 3 but 18 would pay 4.


I may do a 50/30/20 for our 1 table deep stack bounty freezeout next month. I personally find it more attractive at a home game. However most prefer more top heavy payouts. My new meetup recruits, one min cashing, comes from the local bar league where the prize is a bar tab and is WTA. She was thrilled to get $120.

 

[Mojo1312]

Last nights tournament would have likely lasted until 1 A.M. if the chips were more evenly distributed. I don't know how your group would have responded if the tournament had lasted an additional 30 minutes.

Levels 1-3 can be increased to 30 minutes by eliminating level 14 if that is a better fit.
Alternatively, you can ensure that the tournament will end by 12:30 if you eliminate level 14 altogether.

You may find the math interesting.
The prize pool for a 15 player $25 tournament with 14 add-ons and 4 re-buys is $825.

I used to do 4 spots paid and more generous payouts to lower places only to be met with complaints. Many see the tourney as kind of a lottery in that they want big top heavy prize pools.

Same with the group I play with now.

Their pay-out structure is 45/30/15/10 for top four and 45/25/15/10/5 for top 5.

Their top three pay-out also deviates from the 50/30/20 norm, -- 50/33.33/16.67.