Cash + Tournament + Board Game = One Set To Rule Then All (1 Viewer)

[Yahooligan]

Alright. I've got one that may ruffle some feathers. I'm going to share all my thoughts, but I'd love it if you'd push back against anything that wouldn't play well with others, or is a bit too creative feel free to question any assumptions, I'd love the nudge before I drop a bunch of $$$ on my order.

I'm going to design my first, and hopefully last set of CPC chips. Buy once cry once. No judgement on the collectors, I just want to go through this once .

I'm hoping to combine my cash and tournament sets (I know this is borderline heresy in this forum) and also use the chips for board game counters (think Roxley Iron Clays).

I already did math on board game banks and I'm confident any tourney set I make will have a large enough bank to cover any needs - no need for input here.

I'm going non-dom. ($ signs are distracting) board games are often random currencies.

I'm going to use a 20 instead of 25 chip. $20 easier rebuy.

I'm doing an ultra wide variety of denominations and even doing a handful of plaques at the highest 2 denominations to get some Casino Royale vibes going.

I've read most posts + scoured everything YouTube has. I have a huge excel spreadsheet averaging recommendations + a few different scenarios that could play out.

Usage Breakdown:
45% tournamnet - up to 30 people
50% board games
5% cash with trusted friends - 10 max

I'm aware of the security breach potential for commingling chips and not worried about it. Won't be running both games simultaneously. I'll be playing cash with trusted friends only, and rarely at that. Also going to order each color in quantities of 100 so that the racks are clean and show missing chips if any are missing.

I initially had fractionals, but this range is already crazy, so I nixed them and am Planning on up "scaling up" for the rare times I'm doing a low stakes cash game. Eg. the black T100 chip will be $1, red t5 will be $.05. This will throw all the colors off, but I'm thinking will be simple enough.

I'd like to be able to accommodate up to 30 players for a tournament. We often hit 15 or so, but some players like taller stacks, so dishing out more chips as a starting stack is a gaudy luxury that is appreciated (not necessary). It's just fun to have piles.

I'm the "softest" at the higher denominations - I don't get the sense people play in these ranges much and am having a hard time seeing how this would play out. Maybe I'm trying to hard to get the to 500K and 1M plaques like in Casino Royale.

Alright, thanks for hanging in there - here's the tentative breakdown:

T1 x 200
T5 x 300
T20 x 200
T100 x 200
T500 x 100
T1k x 100 (is this denomination necessary?)
T5k x 100
T25K x 60
T100K x 40
500k plaque x 20
1M plaque x 20
Total: 1300 chips

Thoughts?

 

[allforcharity]

You need to REALLY think this through and not rush.
Realize that tourney breakdowns and cash breakdowns are very separate beasts and you must be careful to have an efficient number of tourney chips to cover all your starting stacks and rebuys.
If doing a dual-use set, then also calculate your total bank needs.

Your chips can have different labels on each side. At the very least, consider putting cash value on one side and tourney value on the other.

Designing so many denominations with each chip distinct is going to be HARD.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

I don't really see many questions in there, so here are my thoughts.

1. What do you want starting stacks to be when you have 30 players? From there, just do the math.
2. Then allow for rebuys and color-ups. There are many good posts and threads on that here. Search for posts by @BGinGA
3. Rebuys don't need to be identical to starting stacks. Use higher denoms and just a few chips once the full stacks are used up.
4. Yes, for most standard tournament play, T1000 is not only necessary, but it's a workhorse chip. For a 30 person tournament set, 100 is not nearly enough. Again, back to point #1 - do the math.
5. $20 is a great chip for cash game play. My opinion, T20 is awful for tournament play. Go with T25, especially since you are playing very little cash.

See anything I missed? Feel free to ask more specific questions.

 

[Yahooligan]

Your chips can have different labels on each side. At the very least, consider putting cash value on one side and tourney value on the other.

This is a fascinating idea. I was considering some differences between sides. This could help give the different inlays purpose. I'll mess around with the concept.

Designing so many denominations with each chip distinct is going to be HARD.

I agree - I did work pretty hard to get some distinct colors going here. You can check the breakout here (note inlay art isn't final, just for illustration purposes). Are these colors distinct enough?

I'm guessing we won't have more than 5 colors running simultaneously at any given time:

 

[Yahooligan]

$20 is a great chip for cash game play. My opinion, T20 is awful for tournament play. Go with T25, especially since you are playing very little cash.

Good call - since I'm using this mostly for tournaments, I'll make the swap.

Regarding your other comments - time to hop back into Google Sheets and do some calculations....

 

[allforcharity]

Are these colors distinct enough?

I won't get into specifics so early. Your design principles should take into consideration:

Different denoms should be distinct when looking at faces so you can estimate what's in a pot when you look at it.

Different denoms should be distinct when looking from the edges so you can estimate what's in a player's stack when you look at it.

 

[Yahooligan]

I won't get into specifics so early. Your design principles should take into consideration:

Different denoms should be distinct when looking at faces so you can estimate what's in a pot when you look at it.

Different denoms should be distinct when looking from the edges so you can estimate what's in a player's stack when you look at it.

No worries - once I get the breakdown settled, I'll probably start a new thread on design specifics.

 

[Eriks]

Change the background to a more neutral color

 

[drdr]

I like your aim. Think some similarity with what I'm doing. I'm using one set for cash and tourny. I run T5 based tournaments and have done for 18 years with no issue, even to two tables. Early losers use the $1 and $5 for cash limit side game once first chip up done. That has allowed me to use the most abundant chips for both cash and tourny for efficiency. Also means running multiple table tourneys is possible with fewer large denominations. My current CPC set breakdown is very similar to your plan:
$1 x 200
$5 x 300
$25 x 200
$100 x 100
$500 x 80
$1000 x 20
I plan on adding fracs of 1c, 5c, and 25c for micro cash games, which my crew wants even though PCFers think I'm mad lol.

Do order more of each chip than you will have in use. My set had three spinners and a few more damaged chip when delivered. Lock those spares far away.
Am intrigued on the dual sided suggestion for cash vs tourny.
You must trust your players with this single set approach. Be sure on this. But also do chip checks.
Do really think it through... until you are certain... then think more anyway.

 

[drdr]

This is a fascinating idea. I was considering some differences between sides. This could help give the different inlays purpose. I'll mess around with the concept.

I agree - I did work pretty hard to get some distinct colors going here. You can check the breakout here (note inlay art isn't final, just for illustration purposes). Are these colors distinct enough?

I'm guessing we won't have more than 5 colors running simultaneously at any given time:
View attachment 1306838

Heh, even has some similarity to my sets colours and spots. Start a separate thread just for colour/spot advice?

 

[Yahooligan]

I plan on adding fracs of 1c, 5c, and 25c for micro cash games, which my crew wants even though PCFers think I'm mad lol.

I don't think this is crazy - ever thought of using the same chips and going higher instead of buying smaller fracs? Something about the higher numbers feels more epic than dipping into sub-dollar fracs.

Eg. T1 = 1c, T5 = 5c, T100 = $1.

Anyone done this without confusion?

 

[Yahooligan]

Early losers use the $1 and $5 for cash limit side game once first chip up done.

This is brilliant. The break/color up is the perfect time to open a cash game. Makes tons of sense because these are the workhorses. THIS is why I opened this thread. (I'm imaging the security guys who have seperate cash/tourney sets groaning right now).

Solid logic - You're pushing me toward a T5 starting base.

If I start a tournament at a T5, I'll have to let go of my humongous $1M plaques. but will save some cash on the order...possibly getting me down to 1000 chips.

 

[SeanGecko]

 

[Trihonda]

Sorry, this just makes ZERO sense to me. The idea of creating a set that works for both cash and tourney is not smart. You'll wind up getting a set that doesn't work the best for either (but just ok)... to get a set that works great for both, you'll need more chips than if you just made two sets... AND you introduce lots of security issues that just don't need to be there. It makes players feel more confident that chips can't migrate between games, ever. Just break them into two sets. You'll save money, headaches and work.

Start tournies like most casinos do, with T25, then go from there.
DO a cash set based on your cash game needs ($1/$5/$20/$100

Last bit of advice is don't rush. My last cash set alone took two years to design (and pay for).

 

[Yahooligan]

to get a set that works great for both, you'll need more chips than if you just made two sets...

Appreciate the feedback. I'll do the math and compare total chip counts - If I do two sets, maybe I can have some similiarities between the two sets so they feel cohesive sitting side by side, but different enough so that they are obviously different sets... let's call them "complementary."

Last bit of advice is don't rush. My last cash set alone took two years to design (and pay for).

100% agree with the don't rush concept.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

Change the background to a more neutral color

View attachment 1306844
View attachment 1306845

I'll never understand why CPC makes that awful olive green the default background color. I did the exact same thing when I first started using it, until someone pointed out to me that I could change it.

 

[Eriks]

I'll never understand why CPC makes that awful olive green the default background color. I did the exact same thing when I first started using it, until someone pointed out to me that I could change it.

Yeah, that is weird. It’s definitely the worst one

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

This is brilliant. The break/color up is the perfect time to open a cash game. Makes tons of sense because these are the workhorses. THIS is why I opened this thread. (I'm imaging the security guys who have seperate cash/tourney sets groaning right now).

Solid logic - You're pushing me toward a T5 starting base.

If I start a tournament at a T5, I'll have to let go of my humongous $1M plaques. but will save some cash on the order...possibly getting me down to 1000 chips.

What you need to understand is that those of us who are very active on this forum, and therefore, the ones you'll get the most replies from, are collectors of poker chip sets. The idea of having one set to do it all is foreign to most of us. I have at least 6 playable cash sets and three playable tournament sets. AND... I'm primarily a cash player. I've hosted exactly ONE tournament in the past three years. Let me repeat - I've hosted one tournament, but I own three tournament sets of chips. Because long term membership here at PCF is a disease!

Discount anyone here who tells you you can't use one set for both. They are not like you. Not saying the concerns aren't legitimate, but once you've considered them, if you are comfortable with the potential downside, don't hesitate to move forward.

 

[Yahooligan]

What you need to understand is that those of us who are very active on this forum, and therefore, the ones you'll get the most replies from, are collectors of poker chip sets. The idea of having one set to do it all is foreign to most of us. I have at least 6 playable cash sets and three playable tournament sets. AND... I'm primarily a cash player. I've hosted exactly ONE tournament in the past three years. Let me repeat - I've hosted one tournament, but I own three tournament sets of chips. Because long term membership here at PCF is a disease!

Discount anyone here who tells you you can't use one set for both. They are not like you. Not saying the concerns aren't legitimate, but once you've considered them, if you are comfortable with the potential downside, don't hesitate to move forward.

Appreciate the support. I was keenly aware I would poke some deep paradigms when I started the thread. That being said, the "debates" are good honing on the approach, even when approached from a different perspetcive.

@Trihonda had some good thoughts. Per his suggestion, I did the math on two seperate sets vs. a combo. It was a good exercise/question to ask. If I was just using these for Poker, he's right...it would save total chip counts. That being said, I'm using these for board games too, it saves me around 300-400 chips to combine them vs have seperate sets.

The biggest takeaway so far is that I need to bring my tourney and cash denomination closer together (eg. start with T5 instead of T25) so that I can double up on the workhorse chips. @TX_Golf_N_Poker has the MVP comment in this thread on how to approach this.

 

[Yahooligan]

Alright, I did all the math, following @TX_Golf_N_Poker recommendations. Included color ups & rebuys. You can find it on this Google Sheet (and comment directly in Google Sheets if you like).

Updated Summary for the "One Set to Rule them All" after taking in everyone's feedback:

T1 x 200
T5 x 300
T25 x 300
T100 x 200
T500 x 200
T1K x 100
T5K x 60
T25K x 40
T100K x 10 (plaques)

Total: 1400 chips

Then, went ahead and did a torture test of four different game types:

1. 30 person T1,000 tourney. Base T5
2. 8 person T100,000 tourney. Base T100
3. $1/$2 cash - $100 buy in
4. Microstakes $0.05/$0.10 cash - $10 buy in

Largest tourney (30 players, once a year):

Here's the most common tourney I'll be running:

Cash games a microstakes & $1/$2:

Blow any holes in my logic here!

 

[SeanGecko]

 

[drdr]

Sorry, this just makes ZERO sense to me. The idea of creating a set that works for both cash and tourney is not smart. You'll wind up getting a set that doesn't work the best for either (but just ok)... to get a set that works great for both, you'll need more chips than if you just made two sets... AND you introduce lots of security issues that just don't need to be there. It makes players feel more confident that chips can't migrate between games, ever. Just break them into two sets. You'll save money, headaches and work.

I've seen similar sentiment posted often, but don't understand it compared to my experience. I ran two table T5 tourny then 1/2 blinds limit cash for 17 years with a single set of just 500 chips. Never had any difficulty with it.
Security between tourny and cash is the only true worry I've hit. This has been mitigated by putting a rule that the cash game doesn't run until it is verified that all $5 are returned from tourny at chip up.

It was only since January I upgraded to the 1000 CPC set. Even though I've doubled the number of chips I haven't noticed much different... except for two points. 1) I can table a little more chips per stack, 2) players don't need to make change as often.

 

[drdr]

I don't think this is crazy - ever thought of using the same chips and going higher instead of buying smaller fracs? Something about the higher numbers feels more epic than dipping into sub-dollar fracs.

Eg. T1 = 1c, T5 = 5c, T100 = $1.

Anyone done this without confusion?

Is what I do currently. Though am looking at the micro addon I explained above. Doing that isn't needed... more because I want it. Having the micro chips added on reduced some of the security concern of using a single set, but that can be managed other ways.

 

[Machine]

you’ll shoot your eye out kid.

Your apologetics sound like a teenage who thinks they know better than their parents.

You’re designs are juvenile.

There is story told about a guy who wanted to climb Mount Everest, but didn’t have the time to attend base camp or climb from the beginning, so he choppered in, found out he couldn’t breath and had to be airlifted out.

Is this assessment harsh, yep. Will you heed my advice? I doubt it, but if you’re not smarter than everyone else posting here, then maybe you will buy once cry once and be happy with your purchase long term. I’m actually trying to help you.

Tournament and board games don’t need symbols but they do need a denom.

Flush out a design, order 3/4s of the amount of chips you think you need from Tina. And keep working on your design, in about a year of being an avid poster you’ll be ready to start your CPC journey, or you know spend your money how you like =)

Either way welcome to your journey

 

[Trihonda]

Sorry @Yahooligan your logic is flawed. I routinely run a 40 entry weekly with only 800 chips, and starting stacks are 31 chips. If you’re efficient with your chip breakdowns, you can go with far fewer chips than you might think you need. You believe you need over 1200 chips for a tourney set? While I agree a good tourney set likely has a decent amount of chips, you could be more efficient.

Tx golf assumes we are just collectors and only advocate more chip sets because moar is better (from a collectors standpoint?). Actually I’m a poker player, and have spent many many hours pouring over chip set designs (not just colors, but set breakdowns) to make the sets PLAY better and more efficient. The people here offering you advice have the same experiences.

If you were were just playing cards with some beer buddies in your garage and nobody cared about nice chips, then use dice chips, who cares. But you came here, to the place where we really have perfected not only the art of poker set designs, but the art of creating an experience for our guests, making games run smoother…

…and literally, you’re talking about making a CUSTOM chip order of amazing clay chips…. Why do it half ass?

You can make sets complimentary or similar, but just use different denoms for cash and tourney…. Here’s my Fat Tire cash and tourney sets.

 

[Yahooligan]

But you came here, to the place where we really have perfected not only the art of poker set designs, but the art of creating an experience for our guests, making games run smoother…

I'm definitely listening... this experience for guests (and as you say a set that PLAYs better) is really what I'm going after and I highly value the years of experience you guys have - this is why I threw my crazy ideas out to the community, knowing they would be gnawed at...and come out more honed.

40 entry weekly with only 800 chips, and starting stacks are 31 chips.

This sounds ideal. I'd love to work toward this level of efficiency - if it's simple, share any insights.

I'm going to take @Machine advice and order Tina custom set as a working prototype, THEN after I work out kinks from a few months of play, find the gaps, and order the CPCs.

 

[drdr]

I'm definitely listening... this experience for guests (and as you say a set that PLAYs better) is really what I'm going after and I highly value the years of experience you guys have - this is why I threw my crazy ideas out to the community, knowing they would be gnawed at...and come out more honed.


This sounds ideal. I'd love to work toward this level of efficiency - if it's simple, share any insights.

I'm going to take @Machine advice and order Tina custom set as a working prototype, THEN after I work out kinks from a few months of play, find the gaps, and order the CPCs.

I'm bowing out, as you have a few veterans in helping you here. Is a good thing. Tina custom set for play testing prototype could work. But if you take that route I'll recommend spending much more than a couple months perfecting the CPC design. Take breaks after you think you have a perfect design, come back to them and reevaluate. Rinser, repeat.

 

[SwissChip]

You planned a CPC custom set - so you love nice, pricy chips!
If you love nice chips, i won’t do a ‚one set fits all‘. There will be compromises you don‘t have with 2 different sets.
Just my 2ct…

 

[BPTDirector]

If you get a nice ceramic Tina set you will in effect have two sets when finished with your CPC design process. Mission accomplished!!

 

[Huskerchipper]

Yeah...this pretty much goes against everything in me