2-2 PLO Hand Advice (2 Viewers)

[Hornet]

Playing 2-2 PLO at the casino ($100-$500 buy in).

Hero is in for $1300 after losing a big pot quads under quads a couple of hours earlier. Hero has run his stack up to $1,500. Hero has a TAG image post flop, but like most players at the table has a pretty broad range pre flop. There may have been a perception (or reality) that Hero was on tilt after losing with quads (Especially since Hero flopped quads and villain in that hand went runner runner), but I think that perception has faded.

I’m going to move to the post flop action. I understand a case can be made for folding pf, but let’s just say I strongly believe seeing cheap flops with this lineup is profitable. Button straddle for $5, and I have J♠T♠9♣4♦ in MP. I limp, Button makes it 20, SB calls, BB calls, and UTG calls. I call closing the action. Pot is $100.

Reads:

BTN is a loose player, likes to call with weak draws, and is playing $600. He generally will not bet his draws, and c-bets typically only if he hits the flop.

BB is fairly snug post flop and is playing $430.

UTG is TAG post flop and usually buys in short. He has run up his stack up to $1200. He doesn’t play a ton of PLO, but my overall perception of him from NLHE/PLO is that when he is deep in particular he generally does not get it in bad.

BB and UTG were just moved over from the must move game within the last 20 minutes or so.

Flop comes Q♦J♣8♠. Checked to me. Action?

 

[Highli99]

Pot!

 

[detroitdad]

You flopped the nuts without a boat or flush re draw. I play pot control and try to keep the pot small. Your basically playing a three card PLO hand.

Check call if it doesn't get crazy. I have no desire to play for stacks with this flop/hand.

 

[Josh Kifer]

I suck at PLO, so...

I'd make it 50. Control the pot incase of some draws flopping out, and if you hold the nuts at the end, make them pay.

 

[Hornet]

You flopped the nuts without a boat or flush re draw. I play pot control and try to keep the pot small. Your basically playing a three card PLO hand.

Check call if it doesn't get crazy. I have no desire to play for stacks with this flop/hand.

I have a backdoor flush draw and runner runner boat draw. I agree that my redraw is not a good one.

 

[detroitdad]

I have a backdoor flush draw and runner runner boat draw. I agree that my redraw is not a good one.

If you want to play for stacks with those kind of draws, then maybe I do need to play at your game lol

 

[Kain8]

If you bet pot, the board will pair. So check, bet pot on turn, and THEN have the board pair on the river. Seems pretty standard.

 

[Josh Kifer]

If you bet pot, the board will pair. So check, bet pot on turn, and THEN have the board pair on the river. Seems pretty standard.

This guy PLOs

 

[grebe]

What cards come that you like on the turn/river? That's what it's all about. Not many.

Check/call is probably wise. Not going to get a wrap it set to fold with a pot bet here.

 

[WedgeRock]

Flopped nuts (especially straights) almost never stay nuts in my PLO experience.

I'm fine with a bet to thin the field, but based on your reads, I'm also fine with a check to the button and let him bet to clear the field.

 

[FDLmold]

I have a backdoor flush draw and runner runner boat draw. I agree that my redraw is not a good one.

Don’t forget runner runner quads.

 

[Hornet]

Flopped nuts (especially straights) almost never stay nuts in my PLO experience.

I'm fine with a bet to thin the field, but based on your reads, I'm also fine with a check to the button and let him bet to clear the field.

I should add that my read on BTN is that he doesn’t typically bet his draws and typically will c-bet only if he hits the flop.

 

[Rhodeman77]

I want to keep in the weaker hands and protect my stack. Any card 8 or higher and we no longer have the nuts, that is 1/2 the deck!!!

I like playing pot control, keep their weaker hands in their ranges. If the turn is a blank, 7 or lower card, we can pile the money in then.

 

[Hornet]

I want to keep in the weaker hands and protect my stack. Any card 8 or higher and we no longer have the nuts, that is 1/2 the deck!!!

I like playing pot control, keep their weaker hands in their ranges. If the turn is a blank, 7 or lower card, we can pile the money in then.

Not saying my read was correct, but I thought there was a good chance the players that checked missed the flop and would not call the $100. Those players are fairly tight. The button, OTOH, loves to chase weak draws.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Not saying my read was correct, but I thought there was a good chance the players that checked missed the flop and would not call the $100. Those players are fairly tight. The button, OTOH, loves to chase weak draws.

I find that a lot of PLO players when they flop a pretty strong hand but not the nuts like on this flop, will check planning to call because they don’t want face a much bigger bet if they get raised. Any set would play this way a lot of the times on a made flop.

 

[DoubleEagle]

I would have folded pre. Too many ways this hand becomes second best.

 

[Hornet]

Ok, we’re going with 3 hours as being enough time for the next action.

Continuing ...

Button straddle for $5, and I have in MP. I limp, Button makes it 20, SB calls, BB calls, and UTG calls. I call closing the action. Pot is $100.

Flop is.

Checked to Hero, who pots for $100. I understand the argument for check-calling and gave that line some thought. However, given button’s calling range and the stack sizes, my goal in betting was to get value by having button chase a weak draw and hopefully isolate him.

Button and SB fold. BB flats and UTG pots to $500. UTG has $650 behind, BB has $330 behind, and Hero covers.

Action?

 

[Josh Kifer]

Ok, we’re going with 3 hours as being enough time for the next action.

Continuing ...

Button straddle for $5, and I have in MP. I limp, Button makes it 20, SB calls, BB calls, and UTG calls. I call closing the action. Pot is $100.

Flop is.

Checked to Hero, who pots for $100. I understand the argument for check-calling and gave that line some thought. However, given button’s calling range and the stack sizes, my goal in betting was to get value by having button chase a weak draw and hopefully isolate him.

Button and SB fold. BB flats and UTG pots to $500. UTG has $650 behind, BB has $330 behind, and Hero covers.

Action?

Fold pre. I can't afford the buyin.

 

[Hornet]

I would have folded pre. Too many ways this hand becomes second best.

My only argument against this line is that the players in the game are bad enough so that it is very profitable in my experience to see flops cheaply with non-premium hands.

 

[Hornet]

Fold pre. I can't afford the buyin.

<Sigh>

 

[Josh Kifer]

<Sigh>

YOU ASKED ME WHAT ID DO AND IM POOR AND YOURE MY LAWYER AND I CANT HANDLE THIS STRESS ALL IN...

...oops.

 

[DrStrange]

First things first - - - preflop. Hero has a junk three card hand. No pairs, no nutish flush draw, just three connectors plus a weak flush draw and a useless dangler. Hero can't flop the traditional Omaha monsters - no top set, very few giant multiway draws. Hero is poorly prepared for any major fight playing so deep. Getting involved in a big hand with this assortment of cards will lead to trouble.

Ok, so Hero has strongly held beliefs that he can overcome terrible hand selection vs this field. Perhaps this is somewhat true, perhaps not. I have no doubt someone at the table is capable and also no doubt there are villains playing with terrible Omaha skills. I do wonder why Hero is sitting in this game vs playing a $5/$10 game where his skills would pay much higher rewards. Perhaps this is the only Omaha table running?

Preflop is an instant fold, time to take a bathroom break. Ditto calling the raise.

But now that we didn't fold preflop, what to do?

Hero has the current nut with very weak redraws. I've played Omaha enough to know this set up leads to winning smaller pots and getting stomped when the pot gets big. Still that board is relatively dry and about as good a board as hero could hope to flop. Let's bet here and see if the hand ends, but I don't see a reason to bet pot - $50, maybe $75 should do fine. This is almost once and done though. I am not going to war.

DrStrange

PS and now I see the hand has progressed. I was already inclined to surrender. Now I see the villain reads and stack depths. I think Hero runs the risk of getting freerolled vs a second nut hand with far better redraws. I HATE playing heads I go broke, tails I get my money back. I am done. Fold this sucker and go on.

PPS Hero can also be facing drawing hands good enough that his nut straight is barely EV break-even. All the money is going in the pot. Hero might win this time, but over time his equity is likely negative. BB and UTG are not described as the terrible weak villains hero is hunting for - they seem competent and UTG is clearly looking for a big fight.

 

[Hornet]

I do wonder why Hero is sitting in this game vs playing a $5/$10 game where his skills would pay much higher rewards. Perhaps this is the only Omaha table running?

Interesting question. Hero normally plays in the $5/$5 or $5/$10 games, which are tougher but also profitable. The $5/$5 game had just been called, which caused some of the better players to move there. Hero had to leave in a half hour and didn’t move solely for that reason.

 

[detroitdad]

im folding at this stage

 

[FDLmold]

Our only nightmare is somebody with the nuts and a good redraw. If even one opponent has the nut straight right now like we do, we must fold. The chances of that seem decent enough to be done with the hand.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Ok, we’re going with 3 hours as being enough time for the next action.

Continuing ...

Button straddle for $5, and I have in MP. I limp, Button makes it 20, SB calls, BB calls, and UTG calls. I call closing the action. Pot is $100.

Flop is.

Checked to Hero, who pots for $100. I understand the argument for check-calling and gave that line some thought. However, given button’s calling range and the stack sizes, my goal in betting was to get value by having button chase a weak draw and hopefully isolate him.

Button and SB fold. BB flats and UTG pots to $500. UTG has $650 behind, BB has $330 behind, and Hero covers.

Action?

Here is my official reply:

After the floor is done cleaning up the puke hopefully they didn’t notice I left the table with my $100 flop bet

Hero needs to protect the rest of his stack at this point and get out.

If Hero only had $300 or so left I’d say get it and hope!

 

[Beakertwang]

So, help a PLO noob understand: What most worries us is that villain als has a straight (T9) plus a set, two pair, or a broadway draw, right? Maybe AA or KK?

 

[FDLmold]

Unless we hit some low-percentage runner-runner, if villain has any half decent redraw and also the nuts, the best we can do is get our money back. A set or a higher straight redraw or two pair in that spot would love to see us get all our money in.

 

[DrStrange]

Monsters under the bed?

AKT9 springs to mind. Villain has the same straight with a ten outs, twice, redraw. Hero's only hope is a couple of runner runner draws.
A villain holding QQT9 again has the same nut hand Hero holds with a 35% of making a full house.
lots of weaker but still dominating hands - say QJT9, it only has a "weak" three out redraw but hero still gets stacked one time in eight.
KQQT or similar set plus draw is plus EV vs the "nuts" 57% / 43%

Big draws? Here hero is often ahead but needs to dodge aa lot of outs

AKJT / AKQT - a nice sized wrap 57% hero / 43% villain
AKQQ ect - set plus gut shot straight draw 53% hero / 47% villain
Naked top set, say KKQQ is 39% / 61% One of the most likely "best cases" Top set might get out of line here and play for stacks.

Oh, and there is a third guy in the hand. BB will be all-in on the flop. $1,300 main pot with $1,800 side pot. Could easily be a set in the BB vs a big draw from UTG. In the ideal world both BB and UTG hold a set leaving Hero with a monster edge.

Why fear such things?

All of these sorts of hands are "normal" omaha hands. All of them are better preflop candidates than Hero's hand.

Hero's read on UTG is he plays deep stacks well and doesn't often get his money in bad. BB is snug, fit/fold post flop. It is only twenty minutes play time today - we don't know if Hero sees these guys on a regular basis.

So what sorts of hand would UTG check raise with? We have to assume UTG has a big hand and is willing to risk his entire deep stack. On a good day it is top set or little more than the same made straight. On a bad day, it can be very bad. This isn't hold'em where the flopped straight is "a no doubt about it go to war hand" Omaha is a four card hand that can make some awesomely powerful hands.

This sort of situation is always hard for hold'em players to come to understand when start playing Omaha. Indeed, it is EXACTLY the sort of situation Hero envisions when playing vs a weak field. Except he doesn't want the "sucker" hand, he wants the "master" hand - the opposite of the current situation. Thus, the reason why he should fold.

 

[Highli99]

Embrace the variance and jam.