2/5/10 PLO Line Check (1 Viewer)

[surfik]

Ask yourself would you consider folding on turn?

 

[Anthony Martino]

Ask yourself would you consider folding on turn?

I check-shoved this turn. I believed I was ahead enough of the time and didn't want Villain to get a free river card to make two pair or hit a backdoor club draw on me for free, as the only hand I was worried about (KKxx) he happened to have unfortunately.

 

[Hornet]

This players hands when he raises tend to be stronger ones:

AAxx
KKxx
Suited broadway
paired broadway
higher suited rundowns
higher double pairs

Are you saying against that range I should be willing to 5-bet hands like or ?

I’m saying you should be willing to 4-bet them and call a 5-bet. If you 3-bet to 70, 4-bet will be say 220, and 5-bet say 650.

 

[Frogzilla]

Preface that I don’t play much PLO. We have what seems like a bluff catcher on the turn, and turn raise seems designed to blow him off bluffs. I would rather just buckle up and call down.

Big fan of flop play. Preflop sizing is smaller than I would ever consider but given the metagame analysis you posted, it makes sense.

 

[Hornet]

Well if you think he is only 3-betting you with AA then sure you can just call with the KK hands I mentioned (although these particular KK hands are some of the highest ranking non-AA staring hands). But given Villains range, I think you can safely mix these particular hands into a 4 bet range.

You may be right ... I tend to play it safe with KK hands (even the premium ones) when OOP. I’ve just been burned too many times when the villain does in fact have AA.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Preface that I don’t play much PLO. We have what seems like a bluff catcher on the turn, and turn raise seems designed to blow him off bluffs. I would rather just buckle up and call down.

Big fan of flop play. Preflop sizing is smaller than I would ever consider but given the metagame analysis you posted, it makes sense.

Not really designed to blow him off bluffs. More to make him pay to outdraw me if we are ahead

Lets say he repopped me pre with:



I don't want to just call his turn bet and let him hit a broadway card or club without charging him to do so

 

[Rhodeman77]

Heros policy is to only run it once. If Villains know they can run it twice against you, they'll push harder in spots where there's an opportunity to make you fold, knowing if they get called they have a 2nd board to save them.

Also, this player I'm up against also only runs it once as well, so even if I go twice, he won't.

What other hands would you guys 4-bet OOP here against the best player in the room? What are your plans with those hands if 5-bet?

I’m happy you have adopted the run it once policy.

Double suited run down hands are on my 4 bet range. And once you 4 bet you call off any 5 bet. Your odds are too good. You want to avoid having a bare Ace in your hand for when you run into aces. Then you are playing a 3 card hand effectively.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Doubled suited rundowns are almost a coin flip vs premium AA hands and should be 3 and 4 bet because they play much better heads up. Less chance of having your flush draw dominated.

 

[Rhodeman77]

On the other hand double suited KK hands are much weaker vs AA hands. And as @Hornet said I like to be more cautious with them because when I do 3 or 4 them they run into AAxx hands a lot of the time.

 

[mipevi]

Having a 4bet range deep OOP is not mandatory, I was just curious. If hero did pot there and got called, I think he'd end up with an SPR of a bit over 2.5, which is actually not bad for aces. I also think villain might have very well folded to a 4bet, which would have been nice. But as others have stated, a 4bet range should include some non-AAxx hands as well.

On the turn hero is not quite getting direct odds to call against the actual hand villain has, but honestly it's not that far off either. Hero doesn't need to bet big and get called on non-pairing heart or non-club ace rivers to make up for it. And since villain is at the very top of his range, against his full barreling range hero's situation is even more favorable. Most of the time hero will whiff and should be check/folding the river though.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Having a 4bet range deep OOP is not mandatory, I was just curious. If hero did pot there and got called, I think he'd end up with an SPR of a bit over 2.5, which is actually not bad for aces. I also think villain might have very well folded to a 4bet, which would have been nice. But as others have stated, a 4bet range should include some non-AAxx hands as well.

On the turn hero is not quite getting direct odds to call against the actual hand villain has, but honestly it's not that far off either. Hero doesn't need to bet big and get called on non-pairing heart or non-club ace rivers to make up for it. And since villain is at the very top of his range, against his full barreling range hero's situation is even more favorable. Most of the time hero will whiff and should be check/folding the river though.

I agree that Villain may have been able to fold KKxx preflop if Hero had made his initial bet a full pot size and a full pot size 4 bet. Villain may assume AAxx but his implied odds of making as set aren’t great, and even if he hits the set it doesn’t mean he wins. Even on this flop with nuts Hero still had plenty of equity.

Villain is described as the best PLO in the room so he could definitely make that lay down to a 4 bet.

 

[Anthony Martino]

If I had made a full pot bet preflop, he repotted, then I repotted from there I think he lays it down because he knows what rough shape he is in and has zero fold equity given the SPR that creates

However, because my raise was smaller, my repot wouldn't be big enough to fold him out, he'd call with implied odds and position and be able to play almost perfectly against me

 

[Hornet]

If I had made a full pot bet preflop, he repotted, then I repotted from there I think he lays it down because he knows what rough shape he is in and has zero fold equity given the SPR that creates

However, because my raise was smaller, my repot wouldn't be big enough to fold him out, he'd call with implied odds and position and be able to play almost perfectly against me

Doesn’t that suggest a full pot original raise was the best line?

 

[mipevi]

To me villain's hand is a little too weak to end up on the flop with an SPR of 2.5 against apparent AAxx, position or not. Then again I wouldn't have 3bet it to begin with, so his view on best lines to take is clearly different from mine.

 

[jemfernandez]

I'm not a good PLO player but I echo the feedback here on constructing a balanced pre flop 4 bet range, especially when deep to mix in with your AA hands that you want to get value from (and discourage players from 3betting you light)

 

[Anthony Martino]

Doesn’t that suggest a full pot original raise was the best line?

If we know villain has this specific hand and will repot us. But if I did a full pot raise he may have just called with position and let others in

Whatever the case, it would deviate from my norm, which is keeping pots manageable when deepstacked preflop, until we see the flop, where I feel the decisions really begin

AAXX is a great hand, but I don't get married to them and I'm fine taking flops multiway with it AND letting it go, if I'm not able to get it all in pre or create such a low SPR that I'm never folding the flop

To me villain's hand is a little too weak to end up on the flop with an SPR of 2.5 against apparent AAxx, position or not. Then again I wouldn't have 3bet it to begin with, so his view on best lines to take is clearly different from mine.

In the past I 4-bet him for pot in position deepstacked with AAJ9 and he called OOP with KQT8 and hit a flop of AKJ and then potted right into me on the flop and was a 65% favorite or so. I have zero doubts he'd call with his KKxx hand knowing I have AAxx if there are implied odds, he knows half my hand AND has position

I'm not a good PLO player but I echo the feedback here on constructing a balanced pre flop 4 bet range, especially when deep to mix in with your AA hands that you want to get value from (and discourage players from 3betting you light)

I essentially don't 4-bet ever unless I can get most of my money in preflop or create such a low SPR that the money goes in on the flop regardless

Since I usually play deep, that rarely occurs. Again, I'm a puller, I want multiway pots, I want it to be hard for the deepstacked good players to bluff because of the # of opponents and I want as many bad players in as possible

Most sessions results depend on the outcome of 1 or 2 crucial hands. I'm patient enough to wait hours for that to happen

 

[Rhodeman77]

Doesn’t that suggest a full pot original raise was the best line?

Ding ding ding!!!! We have a winner!

 

[Anthony Martino]

Ding ding ding!!!! We have a winner!

Wrong, the best line was to hit my flush on the river, duh!

 

[Rhodeman77]

If we know villain has this specific hand and will repot us. But if I did a full pot raise he may have just called with position and let others in

Whatever the case, it would deviate from my norm, which is keeping pots manageable when deepstacked preflop, until we see the flop, where I feel the decisions really begin

AAXX is a great hand, but I don't get married to them and I'm fine taking flops multiway with it AND letting it go, if I'm not able to get it all in pre or create such a low SPR that I'm never folding the flop




In the past I 4-bet him for pot in position deepstacked with AAJ9 and he called OOP with KQT8 and hit a flop of AKJ and then potted right into me on the flop and was a 65% favorite or so. I have zero doubts he'd call with his KKxx hand knowing I have AAxx if there are implied odds, he knows half my hand AND has position




I essentially don't 4-bet ever unless I can get most of my money in preflop or create such a low SPR that the money goes in on the flop regardless

Since I usually play deep, that rarely occurs. Again, I'm a puller, I want multiway pots, I want it to be hard for the deepstacked good players to bluff because of the # of opponents and I want as many bad players in as possible

Most sessions results depend on the outcome of 1 or 2 crucial hands. I'm patient enough to wait hours for that to happen

Then why raise at all preflop? Open limp everything and if there is a bet behind you you can choose to 3 bet some hands. This strategy to make a very small bet after several limpers makes no sense to me. It will never thin the field, invites weak 3 bets from later positions since they can now make a bigger bet because of your small raise. Unless you plan to start 4 betting more to punish the weak 3 bets the line isn’t the best course of action.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Then why raise at all preflop? Open limp everything and if there is a bet behind you you can choose to 3 bet some hands. This strategy to make a very small bet after several limpers makes no sense to me. It will never thin the field, invites weak 3 bets from later positions since they can now make a bigger bet because of your small raise. Unless you plan to start 4 betting more to punish the weak 3 bets the line isn’t the best course of action.

Because generally most players aren't repotting here too often in this game, and usually there are enough gamblers mixed in that for a preflop raise to anywhere between $70-125 you'll still see the flop 4 handed often enough

In this spot unfortunately the limpers didn't stick around.