3 bet shove 25+ BB (1 Viewer)

[UKS]

My thoughts before meaningless results.

It looks like a protect a hand bet not a value bet. I ranged her on the mid to mid high pair range (77-JJ) rather than a big pair which I felt would three bet for value. Maybe KQ or AJ/Q but unlikely. At an outside AK as the top of the range.

Specifically, I had a strong feeling it was JJ, 1010 or 99.

I was also concerned about folding as was mentioned further up this thread, if they know you fold hands below AA, KK you are horribly exploitable.

Obviously I did not have KK or AA. But what would be your lower limit with this range against you? You are 2/3rds the way through day one of 7 day ones, there will be around 6000 players in total.

 

[UKS]

The reason I withheld info is because

1. a lot of (as mine does) stories give away details in the narrative. I wanted to get feedback from the fundamentals upward. Most narratives have confirmation bias issues (ie you remember and retell the parts of the story that reflect your own thinking) I was interested in learning from the abstract rather than any one specific hand.

2. Specifically I wanted to avoid mentioning her gender as this was a big point at the table that I felt was inappropriate.

 

[ChaosRock]

I ranged her on the mid to mid high pair range (77-JJ) rather than a big pair which I felt would three bet for value. Maybe KQ or AJ/Q but unlikely. At an outside AK as the top of the range.

Specifically, I had a strong feeling it was JJ, 1010 or 99.

That's pretty close to my initial range I put Villain on. After further details, I might even thing she is shoving a bit wider than that, but not by much.

On the other hand, personally, not sure I'd put more weight on her having 99-JJ. I think it is a smoother distribution personally.

Now, what is your opening range in early position? I think that would help establish your call range as well.

Definitely snapping off with QQ+, AK. The iffy hands would be JJ/TT/AQ and maybe AJ. If you're opening wide in early position, I'd include some of those as well, if you're opening tight, I might dump all of iffy ones.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Sounds like a mid-pair or something like AK or AQ suited perhaps. I agree, I think a very big pair would most likely three-bet instead of jam here, so I think I call 99+ with and AK.

 

[UKS]

I’d open pairs, anything KQ+

Maybe KJo... I know. I said I wasn’t a nit.

 

[Lemonzest]

The reason I withheld info is because

1. a lot of (as mine does) stories give away details in the narrative. I wanted to get feedback from the fundamentals upward. Most narratives have confirmation bias issues (ie you remember and retell the parts of the story that reflect your own thinking) I was interested in learning from the abstract rather than any one specific hand.

2. Specifically I wanted to avoid mentioning her gender as this was a big point at the table that I felt was inappropriate.

Geneder is vital information though. Generally speaking ladies play tight. They have this reputation for a reason.

I would snap off AA and KK. I would have to mull over what to do with QQ/JJ/AK. I would probably end up calling with QQ and fold JJ/AK.

I would snap fold AQ, AJ, and pockets 10s.

 

[JustinInMN]

The reason I withheld info is because

1. a lot of (as mine does) stories give away details in the narrative. I wanted to get feedback from the fundamentals upward. Most narratives have confirmation bias issues (ie you remember and retell the parts of the story that reflect your own thinking) I was interested in learning from the abstract rather than any one specific hand.

2. Specifically I wanted to avoid mentioning her gender as this was a big point at the table that I felt was inappropriate.

I get that giving away too much early on can bias the feedback, withholding hero's holding, villian's holding, the run out and results make sense. But I am just saying questions about facts knowable at the time of the decision, stacks, player images, etc... Should be mentioned at the outset or you will be asked about them. The first dozen or so posts are just a waste of time really because of that. (Though I love that @BGinGA has a frequent opponent that will call on this play every time . )

 

[upNdown]

Given just this new information, I’d definitely get it in with QQ+, but that’s probably it. There are rarely any simple card-based decisions in MTT’s, and without even more information, this isn’t one of them. The fact that she’s been 3-betting light is of less interest to me than the fact that hero has a healthy stack now, but won’t have a healthy stack if you lose this hand. You won’t win this crazy marathon tournament if you win this hand, but you might effectively eliminate yourself if you lose it.
In MTT tournamnt play - at some points in the tourney you’re great with 40 bigs, at some points, you’re approaching shit it get off the pot time. It depends on what the other stacks look like and where the blinds and antes are going next, and how your table is overall.
If you’re at a really tough table, if the blinds are ramping up quickly, if you’re in a situation where you feel like there won’t be many opportunities in the near future to grab some chips, sure, open up your range and get in there.
But if there are soft players at your table or if you’ll definitely have a lot more time, just pick a better spot. 3bb is all you’re in this for - don’t be drawn in by an aggressive player.

 

[UKS]

Results time! I had JJ. I groaned but called.

She had KK. Guys at table went “LOL woman snap fold” and that irritated me as I had actually watched her play all day and she did not “play like a women” (whatever nonsense that is)

The pro on our table? A woman. There was also another woman on the table who did “play like a woman” (weak tight)

I did feel the spot was a good one for a even a coin toss. Though my Stack was good, the field Was so big that there already was opening a gap between the big stacks and the rest. Its a 3 day tournament and I did want to get chips before it got to push ot
Shove time for the average stacks.

I would have folded 1010 and AJ and AQ

 

[upNdown]

Geneder is vital information though. Generally speaking ladies play tight. They have this reputation for a reason.

I disagree. I encounter as many overly aggressive female tournament players as I do tight ABC ones.

 

[Mr Tree]

This felt like real strength to me. I know she had shown several marginal starting hands but keep in mind SHE knows she has shown several marginal starting hands. Also the other hands she called and played when she had equity on the flop. In this case she went straight to the bell. Why? It felt more like a play from someone who thought they could run a trick (which it was.)

I agree the female quotient has no bearing here.

 

[BGinGA]

Agree -- three-betting and calling raises pre-flop with junky stuff isn't the same as a shove-raise - this looks like a legitimate hand. And as stated previously, only calling with QQ, KK, and AA in this spot. Jacks and AK go in the muck. Gender typically makes no difference, especially if other observations have been previously made.

I love that @BGinGA has a frequent opponent that will call on this play every time .

Yeah, and he's actually quite a good player except when he butts heads with me. He even asks outright "why would you bet so much?" after he calls with AQ, JJ, or sometimes even worse. One time it happened, one of the other players muttered, "because you will call." Yet he still does it, has for years, and, as recently as last season. I think he now overthinks the situation, and honestly believes that I'm bluffing this time and expecting him to fold based on past history. But I always have it, he always calls, and he always gets felted -- it's a thing of beauty to watch unfold. @Gobbs knows who I'm speaking of.

 

[ChaosRock]

I’d open pairs, anything KQ+

Maybe KJo... I know. I said I wasn’t a nit.

Hum... Given that, I'd probably just stick to QQ+/AK, which is about 20% of your opening and close to the minimum defense for this overshove.

* Sorry, just saw that you posted the results. I think JJ is the next one in line to add to the calling range so (imo) not a huge mistake either calling or folding.

 

[JustinInMN]

I think he now overthinks the situation, and honestly believes that I'm bluffing this time and expecting him to fold based on past history.

Why apply history when it's so much easiers to just put your opponent on a bluff and call.

 

[upNdown]

Yeah, and he's actually quite a good player except when he butts heads with me. He even asks outright "why would you bet so much?" after he calls with AQ, JJ, or sometimes even worse. One time it happened, one of the other players muttered, "because you will call." Yet he still does it, has for years, and, as recently as last season. I think he now overthinks the situation, and honestly believes that I'm bluffing this time and expecting him to fold based on past history. But I always have it, he always calls, and he always gets felted -- it's a thing of beauty to watch unfold. @Gobbs knows who I'm speaking of.

I think there’s something about your style of play that invites it. In my limited experience with you, I have similar reactions.

 

[BGinGA]

I think there’s something about your style of play that invites it. In my limited experience with you, I have similar reactions.

Noted.

 

[WedgeRock]

But my take on the shover is that either you want to play this hand or not

Maybe shover does not know how to play post flop?

 

[upNdown]

Maybe shover does not know how to play post flop?

Valid point. And valid strategy if that's the case.
This is dangerous, but here goes. My take on the "typical overly agressive female" is that while they're not great post-flop players, they do know how to put you to a decision for your chips and they'll do it frequently. Of course, not everybody can be pigeon-holed into a stereotype, so this kind of thinking is dangerous.

 

[WedgeRock]

To be fair, I posted that before reading any of the details about the players.

 

[Steve Birrer]

If this player is smart then he may well shove with a monster like AA or KK just for some of the points on here. He may well be trying to get you to think he has a so so to good hand and doesn't want to see a flop. So I am sticking with my original thought. Folding unless I hold AA or KK.

 

[Gobbs]

. But I always have it, he always calls, and he always gets felted -- it's a thing of beauty to watch unfold. @Gobbs knows who I'm speaking of.

Yes. Yes, I do....and it is a thing of beauty (even if it means you get a whole ton of chips). It still makes me laugh every time.

For the record, though, it was not me who muttered "because you will call." I don't want that leak filled!!!!!!

 

[UKS]

Interestingly 3 years later I just fold JJ and don't even think about it. The big change in my game (between this and before COVID) was not looking for thin value and just take the juicy situations. Annoyingly, I was on an absolute heater in late 2019 early 2020.