Tourney 40-player tournament -> blind structure, denomination and total chips help needed (2 Viewers)

[Check]

I am in the process of planning a 40-player tournament that I will be hosting 4-6x a year, and now it's time to upgrade the experience with new chips, chip storage, bounty chips, etc. I want to make sure I do this properly since it will be a rather large investment for me.

Info from a recently ran tournament with 31 players and a T10,000 starting stack:

• T10,000 starting stack consisted of:
  
  • 20 x T100
  • 10 x T500
  • 3 x T1000
  • 0 x T5000
• 20-minute blinds
• Started with a 100/200 blind to avoid use of T25 chips (used as the bounty chips)
• Had 20 total re-buys
• 27 add-ons (T5,000)

Overall, the tournament went really well. I will probably change the blind structure a tad to be able to color-up the T100 chips earlier, but otherwise I think the structure was solid. It still went longer than 5 hours, however. I made a revamped blind structure pictured below.


What I'm now envisioning when hosting 40 players:

• T12,000 starting stack with bounty chip
• Tournament length: ~5 hours
• Blind intervals: 20 min
• Unlimited re-buy window (includes new bounty chip)
• One add-on available per player (T5,000)
• Chip denominations
  
  • T100
  • T500
  • T1000
  • T5000
  • T25000
  • Bounty chips

If I want the tournament to be a max of 5 hours, I think having T25 chips would be a challenge considering I need to have pretty aggressive blinds (see image below). It's not a turbo blind structure, but it is definitely quicker than a typical tournament I presume. I would love to start the tournaments earlier to afford more time, but that is not an option. I also do not want to end the tournaments too late in an effort to cater to more players' schedules.

Here is the blind structures I used (left is from the recent tournament; right is revamped):

What I need help with:

• What is the most efficient denomination pyramid for my needs?
• How many chips of each denomination do I need?
• How many total chips do I need to facilitate 40 players, re-buys and add-ons?
• Should I incorporate T25 chips just in case?
• What would you recommend for organization of said chips?
• If I do a T25000 chip, should it be physically larger than the other denominations?
• Is there a fun recommendation for bounty chips?
• How many payouts should there be for 40 players?
• Is my revamped blind structure above okay, or does it need further tweaking?
  
  • aiming for a mix of fun and good tempo
  • 5 hours of playtime
  • casual game, so don't want the blinds to be too cut-throat

Thank you for any guidance in navigating all this. I want to make sure I provide a really good experience for everyone that plays!

 

[MC_CPA]

Something about less 500s and more 1000s. At work though can respond later.

1. Are you open to 15k starting stacks or 20k stack? Will not cost materially more than a 12k stack.
2. Chipcount depends on stack/duration can comment after work
3. rebuy with big chips. With 15k each rebuy is an extra 3 chips, with 20k an extra 4 chips. They can get chance from the denominations at the table already.
4. Up to you for sizing, can do 43mm or plaques or use the same size.
5. Bounty chips are fun just gotta remind players that they are in play.
6. 38%/27%/20%/15%, or if more than 40 36%/24.5%/17%/12.5%/10.5% is what my local casino uses.
7. Blinds will comment after work.

 

[Check]

Something about less 500s and more 1000s. At work though can respond later.

1. Are you open to 15k starting stacks or 20k stack? Will not cost materially more than a 12k stack.
2. Chipcount depends on stack/duration can comment after work
3. rebuy with big chips. With 15k each rebuy is an extra 3 chips, with 20k an extra 4 chips. They can get chance from the denominations at the table already.
4. Up to you for sizing, can do 43mm or plaques or use the same size.
5. Bounty chips are fun just gotta remind players that they are in play.
6. 38%/27%/20%/15%, or if more than 40 36%/24.5%/17%/12.5%/10.5% is what my local casino uses.
7. Blinds will comment after work.

1. I am open. I originally said 12K starting chips because that includes a 2K chip bonus for arriving on time. I researched a lot first and saw another user on here doing this with great results. So, I just assume start with 12k chips since most will take advantage (10K in starting chips is technically the starting point). So, whatever I start with, I do want to have an on-time chip bonus.
2. Totally understandable.
3. So rather than getting a fresh starting stack, re-buys will just get high-value chips? Makes sense considering all the change that can be made from the chips already in play.
4. I like the idea of a bigger chip for the highest denomination - seems like fun with a great visual cue
5. I used bounty chips previously - just wondering if there are neat chips specifically for bounties?
6. Since it's a casual game, I was thinking 7 payouts for a 40-player tournament - too much?

Thanks!

 

[TheRealStephen12]

With a 20K starting stack, the following structure would work well:

100/200
200/400
300/600
400/800
600/1200
Break - Color Up 100s - End Rebuys
1000/2000
1500/3000
2500/5000
4000/8000
6000/12000
Break - Color Up 1Ks
10K/20K
15K/30K
25K/50K (Projected end
Double until winner

7 payouts is not too many for a casual game; casinos often have very few payouts relative to the number of players.

I'll come back with more information after I'm done doing things about everything else.

 

[MC_CPA]

100/200
200/400

The folks here seem to dislike 100% increases (I'm sure there's a reason). Maybe start at 100/300?

Lets say there's 40 signups, and 20 rebuys, and 28 add-ons. That's $1,560k in play (40 x 22k, 20 x 20k, 28 * 10k). With the 20BB rule for when tournament expects to end, when the BB is ~78k the tournament should end.

So the later levels maybe
25k/50k
30k/60k
35k/70k
40k/80k (expected end)
50k/100k
60k/120k
75k/150k

RE 25s, if you haven't already added them, I'd pass. Lots of chips for chips that will be removed after the first few levels.

 

[krafticus]

Some things I'd consider, since I usually host 30+ player tournaments monthly.

1st and foremost, a gray font on a white background is very hard to read.

2nd, I think a barrel of 100's and 3 1000's for a starting stack is not a great choice. I'd be happy with 15 x 100, 5 x 500, 6 x 1000. 500's are used for a few bets, but you'll find that they just get in the way once people have a bunch.

3rd, some of these thiings:

• T12,000 starting stack with bounty chip - Cool. it's a big bonus. I do T10k with a 1k on-time bonus.
• Tournament length: ~5 hours
• Blind intervals: 20 min
• Unlimited re-buy window (includes new bounty chip) -- This concerns me. SO, in theory, I've got deep pockets, and can make it heads up, bust out, and rebuy?? Generally, most tournaments lock the rebuy period after the 1st break.
• One add-on available per player (T5,000) -- Is this available anytime, or only at the start or only at the rebuy period.

What I need help with:

• What is the most efficient denomination pyramid for my needs? The T100 and T1000
• How many chips of each denomination do I need? If you have a ton of rebuys, you can do a few with your original starting stacks, or give them 5 x 1k and 1 5k, and then just 5k chips.
• How many total chips do I need to facilitate 40 players, re-buys and add-ons? at least 600 x T100, 300 x T500, 500 x T1000, 200 x T5000, 60 x T25000, and enough bounties to cover all players and rebuys
• Should I incorporate T25 chips just in case? Not for this game and your 5 hour time frame. I think your blinds are already a tad aggressive
• What would you recommend for organization of said chips? Tool chest, bookcase with racks, or 2 birdcages. Also, get starting stack tubes (you can search the forum for multiple options there)
• If I do a T25000 chip, should it be physically larger than the other denominations? No need, as long as you can tell them apart
• Is there a fun recommendation for bounty chips? There is a thread on PCF about bounty chips. check it out and you might see something you like
• How many payouts should there be for 40 players? well, it's usually 10-15% of the playing field .. so you'd want to consider the rebuys too. for 40, I'd pay 5 (maybe 6). for 50, I'd pay 6, maybe 7, and for 60+, I'd pay 7, maybe 8
  • aiming for a mix of fun and good tempo. you have a bunch of jumps in the blinds that are 100% jumps (like 100/200 to 200/400), so in 20 minutes, you go from 60 BB to 30BB, and after that, 20BB based on a 12k stack. A good structure though, and a quick tournament don't mesh well, so take that for what it is.
  • 5 hours of playtime
  • casual game, so don't want the blinds to be too cut-throat -- they kind of are, see my comment above. if you start with 10k stacks, at the 1st break, you have essentially 10BB if you were to rebuy there. that's a shove/fold decision on level 5... which seems nuts.

Sorry, multi-tasking, and got pulled in another direction ... more thoughts to come later.

 

[Check]

The folks here seem to dislike 100% increases (I'm sure there's a reason). Maybe start at 100/300?

Lets say there's 40 signups, and 20 rebuys, and 28 add-ons. That's $1,560k in play (40 x 22k, 20 x 20k, 28 * 10k). With the 20BB rule for when tournament expects to end, when the BB is ~78k the tournament should end.

So the later levels maybe
25k/50k
30k/60k
35k/70k
40k/80k (expected end)
50k/100k
60k/120k
75k/150k

RE 25s, if you haven't already added them, I'd pass. Lots of chips for chips that will be removed after the first few levels.

Can you clarify what the 20BB rule is? How is that determined as the expected end?

 

[Check]

Some things I'd consider, since I usually host 30+ player tournaments monthly.

1st and foremost, a gray font on a white background is very hard to read.

2nd, I think a barrel of 100's and 3 1000's for a starting stack is not a great choice. I'd be happy with 15 x 100, 5 x 500, 6 x 1000. 500's are used for a few bets, but you'll find that they just get in the way once people have a bunch.

3rd, some of these thiings:

• T12,000 starting stack with bounty chip - Cool. it's a big bonus. I do T10k with a 1k on-time bonus.
• Tournament length: ~5 hours
• Blind intervals: 20 min
• Unlimited re-buy window (includes new bounty chip) -- This concerns me. SO, in theory, I've got deep pockets, and can make it heads up, bust out, and rebuy?? Generally, most tournaments lock the rebuy period after the 1st break.
• One add-on available per player (T5,000) -- Is this available anytime, or only at the start or only at the rebuy period.

What I need help with:

• What is the most efficient denomination pyramid for my needs? The T100 and T1000
• How many chips of each denomination do I need? If you have a ton of rebuys, you can do a few with your original starting stacks, or give them 5 x 1k and 1 5k, and then just 5k chips.
• How many total chips do I need to facilitate 40 players, re-buys and add-ons? at least 600 x T100, 300 x T500, 500 x T1000, 200 x T5000, 60 x T25000, and enough bounties to cover all players and rebuys
• Should I incorporate T25 chips just in case? Not for this game and your 5 hour time frame. I think your blinds are already a tad aggressive
• What would you recommend for organization of said chips? Tool chest, bookcase with racks, or 2 birdcages. Also, get starting stack tubes (you can search the forum for multiple options there)
• If I do a T25000 chip, should it be physically larger than the other denominations? No need, as long as you can tell them apart
• Is there a fun recommendation for bounty chips? There is a thread on PCF about bounty chips. check it out and you might see something you like
• How many payouts should there be for 40 players? well, it's usually 10-15% of the playing field .. so you'd want to consider the rebuys too. for 40, I'd pay 5 (maybe 6). for 50, I'd pay 6, maybe 7, and for 60+, I'd pay 7, maybe 8
  • aiming for a mix of fun and good tempo. you have a bunch of jumps in the blinds that are 100% jumps (like 100/200 to 200/400), so in 20 minutes, you go from 60 BB to 30BB, and after that, 20BB based on a 12k stack. A good structure though, and a quick tournament don't mesh well, so take that for what it is.
  • 5 hours of playtime
  • casual game, so don't want the blinds to be too cut-throat -- they kind of are, see my comment above. if you start with 10k stacks, at the 1st break, you have essentially 10BB if you were to rebuy there. that's a shove/fold decision on level 5... which seems nuts.

Sorry, multi-tasking, and got pulled in another direction ... more thoughts to come later.

Thanks for this! More to come later. But to quickly answer your re-buy and add-on questions:

• Re-buys are only available up to the first break (first 5 blind increases). I can see how I worded it above being confusing. I meant that people can buy in as many times as they want up until the first break. After that, no more re-buys.
• Add-on is optional and takes place at the first break (get half the starting stack). This is a one-time option for each player.

In my first game with the 30-players, the blind structure, re-buys, and optional add-on worked really well! However, the game still took considerably longer than 5 hours (hence the blind revamp), and I realized I definitely need more chips. Now, just looking to fine-tune, provide a more premium experience with better chips and accessories, the ability to accommodate more players, and still keep the tournament around 5 hours

I will admit that I don't understand BB theories. As in, how many BBs remaining should I be aiming for at certain intervals/breaks. That concept is foreign to me and I'm sure clearly shows lol

 

[MC_CPA]

If theres only 20BBs on the table the tournament will be over quickly. So take (total chips)/20 to calculate the BB that the event is expected to end at.

 

[Check]

If theres only 20BBs on the table the tournament will be over quickly. So take (total chips)/20 to calculate the BB that the event is expected to end at.

Got it, thanks! Why is the magic number 20?

 

[TheRealStephen12]

The folks here seem to dislike 100% increases (I'm sure there's a reason). Maybe start at 100/300?

It's just bigger than the rest of the jumps. If you want to get rid of it, starting with 100/200, 100/300, 200/500, 400/800 for the first four levels fixes it and makes the jumps smoother. I figured it was easier since his players were already used to the progression and it kept the SB equal to half the big blind to help newer players along.

Got it, thanks! Why is the magic number 20?

Because the effective stack is 10BB or less, which is simply too short to maintain for any length of time, a larger-field tournament can often end earlier than this.

With a 15/5/6/2 starting stack (probably the most common T100 base T20K stack here), you need 600/200/240/80 for starting stacks. I would expect having another 10 T5Ks per player to cover 2 rebuys + 1 add-on per player would be enough, for another 400 T5Ks. Another 12 T5Ks to color up the 100s, and a barrel of T25Ks to color up the T500s and T1Ks should be enough chips for your set, minus whatever you would like for on time bonuses (which is just 40x whatever chips you need for them), for a total of:

600x T100
200x T500
240x T1000
492x T5000
20x T25000
120x Bounty

To edit the structure: with as many rebuys and add-ons as you have (about 2.5 starting stacks-worth per player), the 20BB mark for it would be 100K chips, or level 15 on this structure. If you shorten levels/breaks to 18 minutes each, the tournament should end by 5:06.

100/200
200/400 (or 100/300)
300/600 (or 200/500)
400/800
600/1200
Break - Color Up T100s - End Rebuys - Offer Add-On
1000/2000
1500/3000
2500/5000
4000/8000
6000/12000
Break - Color Up T500s and T1Ks
10K/20K
15K/30K
25K/50K
40K/80K
60K/120K (Expected EOT with 40 players, 1 rebuy and the add-on each)
100K/200K (Double each level from here, it's unlikely to reach this point anyway).

Casinos often pay 10-12.5% of players, and major tournaments up to 15%. However, for a home game paying more is a good thing, so it will get spread to the worse players more often, which is ideal for a casual game. Many people recommend paying 20% or more of the field of a home game, though you don't seem to mind fewer than that. If you pay 1/6 players and round up, it will pay 5 for 25-30, 6 for 31-36, and 7 for 37-42, which seems to be your goal. The following percentages guarantee any player in for 2.5 buyins (not including bounties) will still make a profit if you pay based on the number of players above, but is fairly flat which is ideal for a casual game:

25-30 players:
1st: 34%
2nd: 23%
3rd: 17%
4th: 14%
5th: 12%

31-36 players:
1st: 31%
2nd: 20%
3rd: 16%
4th: 13%
5th: 11%
6th: 9%

37-40 players:
1st: 29%
2nd: 19%
3rd: 15%
4th: 12%
5th: 10%
6th: 8%
7th: 7%

Hopefully all of this helps you in your adventure!

 

[Check]

It's just bigger than the rest of the jumps. If you want to get rid of it, starting with 100/200, 100/300, 200/500, 400/800 for the first four levels fixes it and makes the jumps smoother. I figured it was easier since his players were already used to the progression and it kept the SB equal to half the big blind to help newer players along.


Because the effective stack is 10BB or less, which is simply too short to maintain for any length of time, a larger-field tournament can often end earlier than this.

With a 15/5/6/2 starting stack (probably the most common T100 base T20K stack here), you need 600/200/240/80 for starting stacks. I would expect having another 10 T5Ks per player to cover 2 rebuys + 1 add-on per player would be enough, for another 400 T5Ks. Another 12 T5Ks to color up the 100s, and a barrel of T25Ks to color up the T500s and T1Ks should be enough chips for your set, minus whatever you would like for on time bonuses (which is just 40x whatever chips you need for them), for a total of:

600x T100
200x T500
240x T1000
492x T5000
20x T25000
120x Bounty

To edit the structure: with as many rebuys and add-ons as you have (about 2.5 starting stacks-worth per player), the 20BB mark for it would be 100K chips, or level 15 on this structure. If you shorten levels/breaks to 18 minutes each, the tournament should end by 5:06.

100/200
200/400 (or 100/300)
300/600 (or 200/500)
400/800
600/1200
Break - Color Up T100s - End Rebuys - Offer Add-On
1000/2000
1500/3000
2500/5000
4000/8000
6000/12000
Break - Color Up T500s and T1Ks
10K/20K
15K/30K
25K/50K
40K/80K
60K/120K (Expected EOT with 40 players, 1 rebuy and the add-on each)
100K/200K (Double each level from here, it's unlikely to reach this point anyway).

Casinos often pay 10-12.5% of players, and major tournaments up to 15%. However, for a home game paying more is a good thing, so it will get spread to the worse players more often, which is ideal for a casual game. Many people recommend paying 20% or more of the field of a home game, though you don't seem to mind fewer than that. If you pay 1/6 players and round up, it will pay 5 for 25-30, 6 for 31-36, and 7 for 37-42, which seems to be your goal. The following percentages guarantee any player in for 2.5 buyins (not including bounties) will still make a profit if you pay based on the number of players above, but is fairly flat which is ideal for a casual game:

25-30 players:
1st: 34%
2nd: 23%
3rd: 17%
4th: 14%
5th: 12%

31-36 players:
1st: 31%
2nd: 20%
3rd: 16%
4th: 13%
5th: 11%
6th: 9%

37-40 players:
1st: 29%
2nd: 19%
3rd: 15%
4th: 12%
5th: 10%
6th: 8%
7th: 7%

Hopefully all of this helps you in your adventure!

Wow, this is really helpful! Thank you for taking the time.

A couple follow-up questions:

1. With the on-time bonus, should I make the starting stack T18,000? The 2,000 bonus would then make it a clean T20,000. I presume almost all (if not all) players will be on time knowing there is a chip bonus.
2. After the first break, is the jump from 600/1200 -> 1000/2000 too large? Being a casual game, I really wanted to make sure the blinds didn't seem too gouging, especially in the early parts of the tournament. I figure after 3 hours is when it would really start to ramp up giving players 3 hours of enjoyment if they're not catching the cards and playing conservatively. That's why I decided to keep the blinds the same right after the break.
3. Will the blind structure you outlined work for 25-30 people as well, or will there always need to be math done based on the number of chips in play? Basically, do I have to estimate chips in play (between initial entry, re-buys, and add-ons), find the 20BB endgame and work backwards from there to determine the blind structure?
4. Right now I have payouts for 7 players from 33-40 people. I figured this would be ample since I would have 4 tables of 8+ people. While I pay out more players, the bottom players that make the money don't get a ton. I have it as follows for 7 payouts:
   1. 35%
   2. 20%
   3. 15%
   4. 12%
   5. 9%
   6. 6%
   7. 3%

I need a lot of frickin' chips! Haha

 

[TheRealStephen12]

1. It should be ok, change shouldn't be too bad for people who aren't on time, though buying 80x 1Ks shouldn't be too hard to make it a 22K stack with the bonus.

2. Having the majority of people remain 3 hours is challenging, since you have to whittle it down from most of the field to a winner in about 2 hours after that.

3. 20BB is always the number to look for, but it's not too hard to calculate everything. If you choose to assume 1 rebuy and 1 add on per player, that's T50K per player. The tournament should not go beyond:
Level 13 with 20 players
Level 14 with 32 players
Level 15 with 48 players

4. If you want a top heavy payout structure, this I think is a bit better, because each pay jump is greater than the last.
1st: 35%
2nd: 20%
3rd: 15%
4th: 11%
5th: 8%
6th: 6%
7th: 5%

You can get by with fewer chips, but you will have to make change more often. 10/6/6/2 can work, though is not generally advised (you can cut about 160 chips or so if you go with it).

 

[krafticus]

If you want the blinds to be fair, and the tournament to end faster, cut the levels from 20 min to 15 min.

 

[Check]

@TheRealStephen12 thank you for the explanation above. I will continue to tinker. Now that I know the math, that will help!

@krafticus from everywhere I'm reading 15 min blinds seems way too fast. I'm open to 15-min blinds, but they're not too fast? I guess it seems like a good compromise if I want the blind values to be less aggressive.

 

[buzzmonkey]

@TheRealStephen12 thank you for the explanation above. I will continue to tinker. Now that I know the math, that will help!

@krafticus from everywhere I'm reading 15 min blinds seems way too fast. I'm open to 15-min blinds, but they're not too fast? I guess it seems like a good compromise if I want the blind values to be less aggressive.

You're better off with faster levels than bigger blind jumps in my opinion. Though anything less than 15 minutes is way too fast in my opinion. You could also do 18 minutes and see how that works out for you. It would probably save you about 30 minutes or so from 20.