AA from early position...how many streets? (2 Viewers)

[kirchhausen]

AKss

 

[Legend5555]

AKss

I would have gone for thin value on the river. Villain almost never has better than 1 pair here as played.

 

[feltschmerz]

I would have gone for thin value on the river. Villain almost never has better than 1 pair here as played.

This decision whether to reopen the action on the river (in hands where I remain unsure where things stand) always gives me fits. But there's so many Kx combos to get value from, I would probably make myself suck it up.

 

[Burke]

KJss/KQss

 

[kirchhausen]

This decision whether to reopen the action on the river (in hands where I remain unsure where things stand) always gives me fits. But there's so many Kx combos to get value from, I would probably make myself suck it up.

I think I'd rather check to induce a bluff (so many missed draws out there) than bet in this spot.

 

[raynmanas]

KsQs is my guess

 

[grebe]

He had . Turned the nuts and decided to slow play and check-raise on the river. I was 50/50 whether to bet or not, but looking at the board was thinking there were just too damn many 2 pair combos that beat me along with the flush draw hands that would fold to an y bet. I just saw this as a spot where 1 pair was just too thin.

I don't think this player ever has AK here....he probably would have 3 bet pre from the straddle (young and aggressive....and staked). So the only hands I could really target for value are KQ and KJ. Any other likely K has 2 pair. Any pair of tens that floated the turn probably has a hard time calling a river bet.

After I played this hand....I was thinking "man, I got lucky, I should have gone broke here". But after some reflection, I think I saved a pile by some hand reading and player profiling. I am quite happy with how I played it, I think....except maybe I should have bet bigger preflop knowing that people are going to call me anyways....maybe $25 first in on a straddled pot. Yes, it does tip off those that are paying attention, but this is 1/2 and not many are doing that.

Hope you guys enjoyed the thread!

 

[boltonguy]

Nice choice to X river. Of course if V had led river large it probably would have been a snap fold so I dont think V left money on the table. Best to X and let you bet river. I didnt think you would be able to get 3 streets as the relative value of your hand went way down when we saw the flop,

 

[Legend5555]

I would have bet folded the river. It's just not that likely unless you know the person is a slow player that they have a strong hand here. At no point did they ever try to put more money into the pot even after hero bet two streets. And the bets were very small. How often is a player REALLY not raising turn with 2 pair+? Most players aren't going to try and check raise the river because you can't be guaranteed to bet for them.

This is why slow players and players that are scared of monsters under the bed don't make more money in live games in spots like this. IMO, both you made mistakes in this hand. He should have raised turn to try and get all the money in on the river. And you should have bet river given how the hand played out.

He lost money by slow playing and you lost money by not being willing to bet fold the river.

In line games people are HORRIBLY unbalanced. And you make tons of money be being think for value on the river in spots where others wouldn't. Think of it from the opponent's POV. Most of them would never think to bet one pair on the river here. So when you do, they are going to think you polarized, though they may not use that term.

If your opponent is a slow player, then when he gets here like this, he either has a monster or a weak made hand that AA beats. So you can safely bet then fold to a raise. They are basically never going to pick up on this tendency and will never exploit your value bets with marginal made hands here.

 

[grebe]

I would have bet folded the river. It's just not that likely unless you know the person is a slow player that they have a strong hand here. At no point did they ever try to put more money into the pot even after hero bet two streets. And the bets were very small. How often is a player REALLY not raising turn with 2 pair+? Most players aren't going to try and check raise the river because you can't be guaranteed to bet for them.

This is why slow players and players that are scared of monsters under the bed don't make more money in live games in spots like this. IMO, both you made mistakes in this hand. He should have raised turn to try and get all the money in on the river. And you should have bet river given how the hand played out.

He lost money by slow playing and you lost money by not being willing to bet fold the river.

In line games people are HORRIBLY unbalanced. And you make tons of money be being think for value on the river in spots where others wouldn't. Think of it from the opponent's POV. Most of them would never think to bet one pair on the river here. So when you do, they are going to think you polarized, though they may not use that term.

If your opponent is a slow player, then when he gets here like this, he either has a monster or a weak made hand that AA beats. So you can safely bet then fold to a raise. They are basically never going to pick up on this tendency and will never exploit your value bets with marginal made hands here.

I like this answer. How much do you bet river and still be willing to fold when getting ridiculous pot odds?

EDIT to add: Pot will be about $200 at this point, and that should be close to what we have left....maybe $250

 

[upNdown]

Doesn’t anybody find it strange that you have multiple players being staked in a $1/2 game?
Maybe my sense is off, and of course anything is possible, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard of people playing with other people’s money, at stakes that low.

 

[Legend5555]

I like this answer. How much do you bet river and still be willing to fold when getting ridiculous pot odds?

EDIT to add: Pot will be about $200 at this point, and that should be close to what we have left....maybe $250

You don't need to bet much since you are just targeting the weakest parts of his range. Villain isn't going to x/r 2pair here because you can still have a some strong hands that beat that. You only need to bet like 25-33% of the pot and fold to literally any raise. Until the villains proves to you they can actually bluff here, is basically assume they almost never do. So any raise is so often better than one pair that your pot odds are almost inconsequential.

If they make a min raise, maybe you pay it off. But more than likely it's going to be bigger than that.

Think of pot odds like this, if you are getting 4 to 1, then for every 1 bluff for every 4 value hands that beat you to make the call break even. For simplicity assume a check raise is always QJ or a bluff. Since he had QJo, we can give him all 16 combos of QJ. So you would need to come up with 4 hands he would bluff here to call. Can you come up with 4 hands the villain would get to the river like this with that are now bluff check raising?

 

[Legend5555]

Doesn’t anybody find it strange that you have multiple players being staked in a $1/2 game?
Maybe my sense is off, and of course anything is possible, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard of people playing with other people’s money, at stakes that low.

What does it matter to Hero? As long as they weren't being staked by the same person, have each other's action in some way, or being staked by the house (in a home game), then it doesn't matter.

 

[upNdown]

What does it matter to Hero? As long as they weren't being staked by the same person, have each other's action in some way, or being staked by the house (in a home game), then it doesn't matter.

I didn't mean to imply that it mattered. It just seems curious, to me.

 

[feltschmerz]

Villain really f***ed up. I think flopping that draw he could have CR'ed the flop, but either way he could have CR'ed turn. He still probably wouldn't have been able to stack Hero, because Hero was obviously concerned enough already to check this line back. But he should have been finding ways to play a bigger pot.

 

[grebe]

I didn't mean to imply that it mattered. It just seems curious, to me.

Yes, it was weird. Also weird that the guy staking them came in and bragged (TWICE) about staking them...he was playing 2/5 in the next room. "HEY DEALER! Make sure you take care of my two guys in here! I am staking them!"

Even more weird when he came in and sat at our table, made a fuss about sitting with too much and having to take money off the table (nice flex, dude). Then, he immediately seat changed to be closer to his buddy that was running hot.

I called it quits when he started coaching his buddy in the above hand (that he is staking) AT THE TABLE. Basically talking to him about the hand played while the guy he beat was sitting there hearing all of it. Staking guy was a real dick.

They all rode together from University of Virginia to play....the staker plays a bunch...up to 5/10. The two guys getting staked just started playing live...because they just became old enough. I know all this because I was asking the other staked guy about it after his buddy told the table.

Table was pretty good before then though...albeit tougher than your average limp fest 1/2 table...but sporty.

 

[grebe]

What does it matter to Hero? As long as they weren't being staked by the same person, have each other's action in some way, or being staked by the house (in a home game), then it doesn't matter.

Read above. They were being staked by same guy, and that guy eventually joined the table.

 

[grebe]

You don't need to bet much since you are just targeting the weakest parts of his range. Villain isn't going to x/r 2pair here because you can still have a some strong hands that beat that. You only need to bet like 25-33% of the pot and fold to literally any raise. Until the villains proves to you they can actually bluff here, is basically assume they almost never do. So any raise is so often better than one pair that your pot odds are almost inconsequential.

If they make a min raise, maybe you pay it off. But more than likely it's going to be bigger than that.

Think of pot odds like this, if you are getting 4 to 1, then for every 1 bluff for every 4 value hands that beat you to make the call break even. For simplicity assume a check raise is always QJ or a bluff. Since he had QJo, we can give him all 16 combos of QJ. So you would need to come up with 4 hands he would bluff here to call. Can you come up with 4 hands the villain would get to the river like this with that are now bluff check raising?

This would be a good hand to put into flopzilla to find out how much win/loss rate would be betting this river. I bet it would be VERY close to break even.

 

[feltschmerz]

Ego in poker is so funny. I can see why some people can't resist letting other people know that they are good players, even if it's probably better for other people to think they're a fish. But I can't for the life of me figure out why you'd want to demand respect for your stakehorses.

 

[grebe]

Ego in poker is so funny. I can see why some people can't resist letting other people know that they are good players, even if it's probably better for other people to think they're a fish. But I can't for the life of me figure out why you'd want to demand respect for your stakehorses.

My take on it: He is a smart kid obviously (UVA is tough to get in to) that has learned to successfully play poker. HOWEVER, he has not learned the life lesson that bragging on your success does not barter you more success. He knows the X's and O's but lacks the soft skills....and that probably cost his "horses" and himself a good bit of money because it no doubt put a damper on the game.

 

[aggie]

?

edit: Well I'm a little late hahhahaha. This page hadn't refreshed. I'll see myself out.

 

[feltschmerz]

?

Dude, you're late to the party. It was QJo.

 

[aggie]

Dude, you're late to the party. It was QJo.

Yeah I had already updated my post. But QJo doesn't seem like a "disgusted, show" hand for me. Eh.

 

[Taghkanic]

Side question: Multiple players being staked at 1/2? Even if the room is terrible, that can’t be that profitable.

 

[grebe]

Yeah I had already updated my post. But QJo doesn't seem like a "disgusted, show" hand for me. Eh.

He was disgusted I did not bet it.

 

[grebe]

Side question: Multiple players being staked at 1/2? Even if the room is terrible, that can’t be that profitable.

Not sure. I think I mentioned they were new to live. The guy I was chatting with said he wanted to buy in himself this time but his buddy insisted. They were both up...one guy slightly, the other was running like Ra the Sun God.

 

[feltschmerz]

Not sure. I think I mentioned they were new to live. The guy I was chatting with said he wanted to buy in himself this time but his buddy insisted. They were both up...one guy slightly, the other was running like Ra the Sun God.

I have to imagine that there are scenarios in which it could become detrimental to one's health if it came to light that multiple players at the table were staked by the same stable. They probably hadn't taken the time to come up with effective tactics for collusion, but even so the potential for shenanigans remains high.

 

[grebe]

anybody got flopzilla or equilab? Would love to plug this in...here is my "reasonable" hand range that I think somebody could end up with at the river....

 

[grebe]

I have to imagine that there are scenarios in which it could become detrimental to one's health if it came to light that multiple players at the table were staked by the same stable. They probably hadn't taken the time to come up with effective tactics for collusion, but even so the potential for shenanigans remains high.

I was vigilant for sure. I mentioned this earlier as well....when the "poker coaching" started happening, I packed it in for the night.

If I were at a home game, I would have got pissed and said something...causing a scene as had happened a couple weeks ago. Being that it's a card room, I just left. I like that I don't have to say shit to anybody....when I feel like leaving, I just do. No policing necessary from me.

 

[Burke]

The place in general sounds scummier and scummier the more you talk about it haha!