Actual (legal) poker rooms? (1 Viewer)

[RiverAce01]

I'm from New Jersey. I'm used to casino poker rooms and that's all I've known.

Do legal "poker rooms" exist in the US? This may seem like a dumb question, but it's an honest one I've been curious about. Keep in mind, I'm used to the big resort/casino poker rooms.

We all know those rooms like in Rounders exist.

But I mean actual poker rooms that aren't in the big time casinos.

I was in California last year for the first time and searched "casinos" and a card place came up. It seemed interesting...a building that just had table games like blackjack and three card poker, but surprising to me, didn't have real poker. Didnt have slots or anything. And wasnt considered a casino. Are these common too?

 

[12thMan]

I know here in the Seattle area there are the tribal casinos, which are big for around here but small compared to even some of the nor Cal casinos, but then there are what you might be referring to as card rooms. No slot machines, just games like three card poker, ultimate Texas hold em, black jack, and some have poker rooms.

Chips from places like Aces, Highway 9, Silver Dollar, and the Iron Horse are all from rooms like that that have closed around this area.

Edit to add: And yes, I would absolutely consider those to be common place. They are "everywhere" compared to the handful of tribals in the area.

 

[Psypher1000]

Do legal "poker rooms" exist in the US?

Yes, but legality varies from state to state. Cali had/has a metric ton of legal cardrooms ranging from one smallish room in size with a couple tables to a place like Ocean's 11 where they have somewhere around 30 poker tables and many other table games (but no craps, and few - if any - slots). Texas technically doesn't outlaw them, but structures things so that they must be run in a very, very specific and strict manner. Arizona and other states strictly forbid them.

 

[Jambine]

There is supposed to be a room opening in in TX soon (Austin?). It sounds like it will be run as a members only "club".
Yes, Texas has some strange laws, but it sounds like the new room just might make it

 

[DrStrange]

The Texas gambling statute is not obscure. The rooms like the one recently opened in Austin is clearly operating in violation of the gambling statute, though at the moment all similar rooms in the state are being ignored by law enforcement.

Yes I know the promoters of the various card rooms in Texas are offering an alternative opinion about the law. Good luck to them. The argument that "no person received any economic benefit other than personal winnings" is going to be quite difficult to successfully argue. Historically the "private club" defense has proven effective for country clubs with a men's card room, so I expect that element (b) (1) will not be difficult to prove as a defense. But (b) (2) and (b) (3) also have to be proven by the defense. It seems odd to argue that the house which has zero risk of losing money in the venture is taking on an equal risk to the players in the game.

It seems rather reckless to find a distinction between rake and tips vs an hourly seat fee in the statute listed below, but that is the defense offered by the local operators. It seems like only a matter of time before some DA or the AG decide to test this in court. We shall see how this works out in court.

I wish the promoters the best. I have visited these rooms before and might visit again, but I know that my home game is a vastly better deal for me and each and every player on my invite list. I also know I host no more than 30 hours a month and that some of my players want to play a lot more than that and/or want to play for higher stakes than I commonly host.

DrStrange

Sec. 47.02. GAMBLING. (a) A person commits an offense if he:
(1) makes a bet on the partial or final result of a game or contest or on the performance of a participant in a game or contest;
(2) makes a bet on the result of any political nomination, appointment, or election or on the degree of success of any nominee, appointee, or candidate; or
(3) plays and bets for money or other thing of value at any game played with cards, dice, balls, or any other gambling device.

(b) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
(1) the actor engaged in gambling in a private place; and
(2) no person received any economic benefit other than personal winnings; and
(3) except for the advantage of skill or luck, the risks of losing and the chances of winning were the same for all participants.

 

[upNdown]

They have them in New Hampshire. They have a higher rake than casinos and a big piece of that goes to charities.

 

[mooremo]

Yes, but legality varies from state to state. Cali had/has a metric ton of legal cardrooms ranging from one smallish room in size with a couple tables to a place like Ocean's 11 where they have somewhere around 30 poker tables and many other table games (but no craps, and few - if any - slots). Texas technically doesn't outlaw them, but structures things so that they must be run in a very, very specific and strict manner. Arizona and other states strictly forbid them.

There is a membership card room in Sierra Vista, AZ, that runs NLHE tournaments and cash games. For the $1/$2 game, the dealer button pays $2 each hand. This room has been there for many years and pops up on google if you look for card room in Sierra Vista

 

[mooremo]

The Texas gambling statute is not obscure. The rooms like the one recently opened in Austin is clearly operating in violation of the gambling statute, though at the moment all similar rooms in the state are being ignored by law enforcement.

Yes I know the promoters of the various card rooms in Texas are offering an alternative opinion about the law. Good luck to them. The argument that "no person received any economic benefit other than personal winnings" is going to be quite difficult to successfully argue. Historically the "private club" defense has proven effective for country clubs with a men's card room, so I expect that element (b) (1) will not be difficult to prove as a defense. But (b) (2) and (b) (3) also have to be proven by the defense. It seems odd to argue that the house which has zero risk of losing money in the venture is taking on an equal risk to the players in the game.

It seems rather reckless to find a distinction between rake and tips vs an hourly seat fee in the statute listed below, but that is the defense offered by the local operators. It seems like only a matter of time before some DA or the AG decide to test this in court. We shall see how this works out in court.

I wish the promoters the best. I have visited these rooms before and might visit again, but I know that my home game is a vastly better deal for me and each and every player on my invite list. I also know I host no more than 30 hours a month and that some of my players want to play a lot more than that and/or want to play for higher stakes than I commonly host.

DrStrange

Sec. 47.02. GAMBLING. (a) A person commits an offense if he:
(1) makes a bet on the partial or final result of a game or contest or on the performance of a participant in a game or contest;
(2) makes a bet on the result of any political nomination, appointment, or election or on the degree of success of any nominee, appointee, or candidate; or
(3) plays and bets for money or other thing of value at any game played with cards, dice, balls, or any other gambling device.

(b) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
(1) the actor engaged in gambling in a private place; and
(2) no person received any economic benefit other than personal winnings; and
(3) except for the advantage of skill or luck, the risks of losing and the chances of winning were the same for all participants.

San Antonio has a couple of them now, I haven't been. I would rather play at home.

 

[ohio3302016]

Ohio has several (Mansfield, Columbus, Dayton, etc).

My understanding is that they are all private clubs where you have to pay a membership fee. There are loopholes in the law regarding gambling that they are able to skirt. For example, they don't charge a traditional rake, there can never be cash on the tables, the chips don't have any monetary designations on them, etc.

 

[Psypher1000]

There is a membership card room in Sierra Vista, AZ, that runs NLHE tournaments and cash games. For the $1/$2 game, the dealer button pays $2 each hand. This room has been there for many years and pops up on google if you look for card room in Sierra Vista

While true, this is an example of local law enforcement looking the other way. Good ol' Sheriff Joe busted many a card room that operated similarly in the valley.

 

[DJ Mack]

Ohio has several (Mansfield, Columbus, Dayton, etc).

My understanding is that they are all private clubs where you have to pay a membership fee. There are loopholes in the law regarding gambling that they are able to skirt. For example, they don't charge a traditional rake, there can never be cash on the tables, the chips don't have any monetary designations on them, etc.

Prior to the legalization of casinos we also had charity poker events, that while not full-time poker rooms in the traditional sense they were a good opportunity to get your gamb0l on and support good causes. Nautica was the big draw in Cleveland and it raised millions over the years. Although it was officially called a festival or event, in reality it was always at the same place and near the end they were running seven days a week with pretty consistent hours of operation.

To comply with the gaming rules it was up to each charity to supply the volunteers. I went a few times and on weekends they'd be running 15-20 tables in both cash and tournament formats. The rake went to the charity that supplied the volunteers that day. There were off-duty CPDers there for security and it was a very above-board operation. Now what I don't know is if the charity had to rent the space from Nautica or if Nautica donated the use of their facility.

Legally there's nothing stopping them from, or anyone else, from starting it back up. But the practical reality is that once the casino opened and could use paid dealers the serious players started going there. As one might expect when using volunteers the quality of dealing varied wildly. It didn't bother me much since I play cards for enjoyment but there were some hard core ringers there and they'd get pissed at the slightest slip up.

 

[BukNaked36]

Prior to the legalization of casinos we also had charity poker events, that while not full-time poker rooms in the traditional sense they were a good opportunity to get your gamb0l on and support good causes. Nautica was the big draw in Cleveland and it raised millions over the years. Although it was officially called a festival or event, in reality it was always at the same place and near the end they were running seven days a week with pretty consistent hours of operation.

To comply with the gaming rules it was up to each charity to supply the volunteers. I went a few times and on weekends they'd be running 15-20 tables in both cash and tournament formats. The rake went to the charity that supplied the volunteers that day. There were off-duty CPDers there for security and it was a very above-board operation. Now what I don't know is if the charity had to rent the space from Nautica or if Nautica donated the use of their facility.

Legally there's nothing stopping them from, or anyone else, from starting it back up. But the practical reality is that once the casino opened and could use paid dealers the serious players started going there. As one might expect when using volunteers the quality of dealing varied wildly. It didn't bother me much since I play cards for enjoyment but there were some hard core ringers there and they'd get pissed at the slightest slip up.

http://www.rcgpoker.com/

Traveling charity poker every night of the week in the Chicago / Rockford area. Usually 3 or 4 tables of cash and 4-5 tourney tables, 1 table of blackjack.

I'm used to casinos with reasonably good dealers. Kind of shocking the first time you have a player tell a dealer to "F" off and the dealer says "shut the F up and F off" back to the player.

 

[Russ Grizwald]

http://www.rcgpoker.com/

Traveling charity poker every night of the week in the Chicago / Rockford area. Usually 3 or 4 tables of cash and 4-5 tourney tables, 1 table of blackjack.

I'm used to casinos with reasonably good dealers. Kind of shocking the first time you have a player tell a dealer to "F" off and the dealer says "shut the F up and F off" back to the player.

Good to know. There is a Champaign charity event on Saturday (different group) but same idea. Big surprise that it is the same Saturday as the Illinois Marathon. They just started this year so I'm hoping they can last through the summer doldrums without the college kids. http://www.illinipoker.com

 

[Rhodeman77]

Prior to the legalization of casinos we also had charity poker events, that while not full-time poker rooms in the traditional sense they were a good opportunity to get your gamb0l on and support good causes. Nautica was the big draw in Cleveland and it raised millions over the years. Although it was officially called a festival or event, in reality it was always at the same place and near the end they were running seven days a week with pretty consistent hours of operation.

To comply with the gaming rules it was up to each charity to supply the volunteers. I went a few times and on weekends they'd be running 15-20 tables in both cash and tournament formats. The rake went to the charity that supplied the volunteers that day. There were off-duty CPDers there for security and it was a very above-board operation. Now what I don't know is if the charity had to rent the space from Nautica or if Nautica donated the use of their facility.

Legally there's nothing stopping them from, or anyone else, from starting it back up. But the practical reality is that once the casino opened and could use paid dealers the serious players started going there. As one might expect when using volunteers the quality of dealing varied wildly. It didn't bother me much since I play cards for enjoyment but there were some hard core ringers there and they'd get pissed at the slightest slip up.

Yes the charities had to pay. My sister runs a non-profit and looked into it. Nautica kept the first 10k or so of the rake for the weekend to cover their "overhead".

Jacobs (Nautica owners) tried to keep it running for a while after the casino opened moving it to the bar up the street once they were kicked out of the Powerhouse for the new aquarium, but the demand had died so much and all that was left were the shady players that were being kicked out of the casino that it died out quickly.