Against the rules, poor etiquette, or totally fine? (1 Viewer)

[LotsOfChips]

I play a weekly $20 NLHE tournament with a group of locals. Skill level ranges from really bad to fairly proficient. Two or three of the better players know each other fairly well and play together a lot. When they are sitting beside each other and one or two of them folds, the remaining player will show them his cards in the middle of the hand, and sometimes make a comment about the strength of the hand (the live player, not the folded player). This is frequently followed by a raise by the remaining player (regardless of the actual hand strength), but these players will raise almost any two cards, especially if the remaining field is small or passive.

Showing live cards mid-hand to folded players kind of tilts me, because:
a) one player to a hand, thanks
b) the folded players gain a lot of information about what hands the remaining player will fold, call or raise with, and can use that information on future hands (information that is not available to other players at the table).

I haven't said anything yet, but I'm wondering whether this is a legitimate action, possible angle shooting, bad etiquette, or straight up against the rules,

Opinions from PCF?

 

[Josh Kifer]

One player per hand. Period. We allow shows at our table with no talk or angle (mainly to show others your amazing draws or good folds), but that would be quashed and they would be warned in my house.

 

[BigSlick4523]

I have had this problem too my prob is the people I play with don't take it nearly as serious as me also most of them are usually drinking that's besides the point if someone shows someone else at the table once the hand is over demand to see the cards SHOW ONE SHOW ALL

Like I said I am in the same boat as you alot of times and I don't really say much either but when I do people get mad sometimes it's a tough spot to be in I find this as very very poor etiquette

 

[Machine]

Show one show all will curb that, demand to see the hand.

 

[wcsmik]

i went through a similar situation in my 2nd ever home game last night.

alot of people saying things like “omg I would have had a straight” or “man I had the King”.

my group is fairly new to poker so I let it slide… but it did bother me a bit since I knew it would give an edge to somebody that is still in the game.

I plan on putting a stop to this once my group gets more educated on the strategies of holdem. Who knows… maybe it will stop on its own eventually.

although I will say… it was fun watching somebody be disappointed in missing out on a straight or flush since we were all kind of drunk.

 

[grebe]

Definitely against the rules, but how serious can these players be if they are showing opponents their hands? It happens often, mostly after they fold....I just let it slide myself, but if anybody else said show all, I would totally agree.

 

[upNdown]

It sounds fine to me.
It’s more than a little obnoxious, and after the hand, I’d make sure the rest of the table got to see those two cards (or at least got to see them on demand.). But in terms of rules and etiquette being violated, I don’t see any violations.
if it was my game, I’d make sure to have a random seat draw, to try to split up Brunson, Reese, and Ungar.

 

[upNdown]

Definitely against the rules

Maybe I missed or misread something. Which rule are they violating?

edit:
As long as the buddies don’t say anything, it’s not a violation of one player to a hand. And until somebody actually asks to see them, you can’t really complain about show one show all.

For what it’s worth, I’ve seen this behavior in every venue I’ve ever played. Not on every hand of course, but it happens all the time, often between strangers.

 

[grebe]

Maybe I missed or misread something. Which rule are they violating?

OPTAH

 

[upNdown]

OPTAH

If the guy who sees your cards doesn’t say anything or otherwise influence play, how are they violating that rule?

 

[grebe]

If the guy who sees your cards doesn’t say anything or otherwise influence play, how are they violating that rule?

Maybe I need to re-read the rule. Everybody should at least get to see those cards though.

 

[upNdown]

Maybe I need to re-read the rule. Everybody should at least get to see those cards though.

Yes, sometimes the dealer will proactively show them, but more often, they’ll only be shown to everybody if somebody asks.

 

[allforcharity]

During a cash game in recent memory, there was a guy I had just met on my left who was wanting to show me his hand several times over the course of the night (after I had folded, of course). I found it very disconcerting and I refused to look, not wanting to encourage it. I'm not sure if it was some sort of tactic to see if he could read other people's reactions to my likely reaction, or what.

 

[Bluegrass Poker]

i went through a similar situation in my 2nd ever home game last night.

alot of people saying things like “omg I would have had a straight” or “man I had the King”.

my group is fairly new to poker so I let it slide… but it did bother me a bit since I knew it would give an edge to somebody that is still in the game.

I plan on putting a stop to this once my group gets more educated on the strategies of holdem. Who knows… maybe it will stop on its own eventually.

although I will say… it was fun watching somebody be disappointed in missing out on a straight or flush since we were all kind of drunk.

If you want to stop it then do it early rather than later. Old habits are harder to break.

 

[Jake14mw]

It's always tough to deal with these situations with a casual crowd. If you don't nip it in the bud now though, it's going to be harder to stop it later. I would present it in one of your next games by addressing it as a general point before someone does it, saying that you can't do or say anything during a hand that could give any player any information about cards you had. Your action or the just the other players reaction can give information. Explain that you are only pointing it out so that everyone understands the rules because all rules have a purpose, and so there are no grey lines.

 

[Billybob1542]

Definitely show one show all after the hand is done at my home games. I think people’s expressions came make some of the people left in the hand make judgment calls based on people’s reactions.

 

[DeeVee8]

Maybe I need to re-read the rule. Everybody should at least get to see those cards though.

Not something I would allow in a game. Giving information to some players but not others goes against show-one, show-all. OPTAH is also involved. If more than one player knows the content of a hand...um...no OPTAH. Overall a bad idea to allow this.

 

[trigs]

I have played with players that do this sometimes. I have never said anything because this has never happened while I was hosting (that I've noticed or can remember at least). However, it does bother me because the person he is showing his cards to is getting information that everyone else is not getting (even if that person is already out of the current hand, they can still benefit from that info in future hands). Also, the person he is showing his cards to can have a reaction to them that could influence play in the current hand no matter how much they try to not react. If the person being shown the cards says anything in their reaction, it's even worse.

It's one thing to show your cards after the hand is over (which is perfectly fine), but it's completely different to show your cards while the hand is still in progress. If I was hosting, I'd probably talk to the group and state that I will not allow that in my home game. Being a participant at someone else's home game, I am much more reluctant to say something. Maybe it would be best to speak to the host on the side and state your reasons as to why players shouldn't be allowed to show cards mid-hand and hopefully the host will speak to the group as a whole.

What this player is doing is not against the rules, but it is poor etiquette and can lead to issues down the road. However, if it's not my game and I can easily be uninvited to future games, I don't feel comfortable telling the whole table what they should or shouldn't be doing. That's up to the host who is running the game. If I'm that upset about certain players in the game doing things I don't agree with, then I have the option to not attend those games anymore.

 

[Rakrul]

First of all, no rules are broken as long as the folded player(s) don't offer any advise, visually or orally.
Show one, show all is a tournament rule that you can "exploit", but before you do - consider this;
Why is this a problem? It tilts you, but so what? If I hate pink shirts, I can't construe some rule to enforce it. They don't seem to be good players, and raising any two is hardly a strategy that you can't take advantage of, so why do you want them to stop playing poorly? Or make them gun for you?

 

[joseywales]

When we first started our game, there were a few inexperienced players. One time a player looked at folded card. I said, “don’t get caught doing that in a serious game.” He never did it again. He’s a good guy, who plays for fun and loses his share for sure. Curiosity got the better of him and he just wasn’t thinking.

 

[warma]

alot of people saying things like “omg I would have had a straight” or “man I had the King”.

Lies, all lies.

 

[surfik]

Absolutely no no...

 

[Machine]

Show one, show all is a tournament rule

False, its more applicable to cash play, primarily used as evidence for (or against) collusion.

I feel that most people think they know the rules because they've played in casinos or home games for 5 years. There are a few different rule books, the one I've adopted is Cooke's Rules of Real Poker, he's been rounding for well over 20 years, has written for casinos and blogs. His rule book, he has requested a significant 'house rules' of most of the casinos and card rooms, and compiled them with variants.

There will be some variation from casino to casino, but it covers the most common ones.

Article 11.12 he talks about show one, show all and how it should be handled. If its a house game where you deal, simply protect the muck from the exposed hand, and show it during your deals.

That said, I play in a middle stakes PLO, ppl fold face up, or could give a shit about show one show all (meaning they will gladly show all).
So long as no one is talking about it, showing your hand is fine. Where it really matters is at the end when someone bets, and they don't want to show the table, but will show a neighbor, that's when you REALLY wanna call for it. That when they will consider not showing anyone again.

 

[Rakrul]

False, its more applicable to cash play, primarily used as evidence for (or against) collusion.[...]

I stand corrected.
In TDA, there is Rule #62: No Disclosure that says:

Players must protect other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore players, whether in the hand or not, must not:
1. Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
2. Advise or criticize play at any time,
3. Read a hand that hasn't been tabled.
One-player-to-a-hand is in effect. Among other things, this rule prohibits showing a hand to or discussing strategy with another player, advisor, or spectator.

We use RRoP at our cash games (and tournaments, in reality but that's irrelevant).
Players are entitled to receive equal access to information about the contents of another player’s hand. After a deal, if cards are shown to another player, every player at the table has a right to see those cards. During a deal, cards that were shown to an active player who might have a further wagering decision on that betting round must immediately be shown to all the other players. If the player who saw the cards is not involved in the deal, or cannot use the information in wagering, the information should be withheld until the betting is over, so it does not affect the normal outcome of the deal. Cards shown to a person who has no more wagering decisions on that betting round, but might use the information on a later betting round, should be shown to the other players at the conclusion of that betting round. If only a portion of the hand has been shown, there is no requirement to show any of the unseen cards. The shown cards are treated as given in the preceding part of this rule.

 

[Bluegrass Poker]

. Where it really matters is at the end when someone bets, and they don't want to show the table, but will show a neighbor, that's when you REALLY wanna call for it. That when they will consider not showing anyone again.

Yep. First time I did that when I was the dealing the guy who showed his neighbor got pissed. I told him show one show all. He didn’t like it but I showed him the rule and he still didn’t like it but it didn’t happen anymore when I was dealing.

 

[Machine]

If only a portion of the hand has been shown, there is no requirement to show any of the unseen cards.

Most of the games I play would handle this based on how the cards are exposed.

If a player shows one card to another player (sometimes the table) the other card is exposed.
If a player mucks the cards and for some reason other than intent, the rest of the hand is not exposed.

I found this post interesting about RRoP

 

[Budha]

It is clearly bad poker etiquette and a no no. That said, I think it’s fairly common in low stakes friendly games. Lots of folks don’t know the rules. I don’t get too worked up about it in those situations unless it’s frequent or seems shady. If it’s frequent, I might make a friendly comment to educate them on how that can get you in trouble in a real game.

I think it’s alway fair game to call “show one, show all” and sometimes that’s enough to curb it.

In a serious game, I would have an issue with it. I also agree with a previous post that in a show down or big pot, it’s always show one show all.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

sometimes make a comment about the strength of the hand (the live player, not the folded player)

This, to me, is a bigger problem than showing cards to the player who folded. Players should not be discussing the contents of their hand in a multi way pot. If it's cash and heads up, say whatever you want.

But yeah, if you want the exposure to stop, just start calling show one show all when it happens.

 

[upNdown]

I don’t know if we have a consensus here on whether this is actually against the rules. Since all rules aren’t the same, I’ll guess it’s against some of the rules?
I’m one of those guys who has played in the casinos for 5 years and thinks he knows all the rules. (Not sure if I read that here or in another thread. But, based on my experience, I’ll say again that this happens everywhere I’ve played - home games, cardrooms, and casinos. And I’ve never seen any ruling other than show one, show all. So all I’m saying is, it happens a lot.
I get why it’s annoying in OPs setting. You’ve got a home game with newish players and 3 guys who think they’re Helmuth, Ivy, and Negreanu. At the very least, it feels exclusive, which sucks. I think if it bothered me, I’d be tempted to call them out on it, every time, and mock them a little bit. If it’s really happening that often, that would certainly bring attention to it, and maybe get them to chill out a little bit. But in the end, I think it’s no big deal, personally.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

I get why it’s annoying in OPs setting. You’ve got a home game with newish players and 3 guys who think they’re Helmuth, Ivy, and Negreanu. At the very least, it feels exclusive, which sucks. I think if it bothered me, I’d be tempted to call them out on it, every time, and mock them a little bit. If it’s really happening that often, that would certainly bring attention to it, and maybe get them to chill out a little bit. But in the end, I think it’s no big deal, personally.

As a player, yeah, I don't really care that much about showing your hand to somebody else. As I said above, I definitely do care if you're talking about it while the cards are still live.

But as a host, I'm honestly not sure. Some of my guys are like me, they don't really care. Others might feel that it's unfairly sharing information, and still others might just think that it's annoying. I think if this problem ever came up, I'd probably take a little time to feel out the room before deciding what to do.