I would say it’s against the rules or make a rule show one show all… if it’s a home game, make it a rule.. if they fold the dealer turns the cards over at the end of the hand?
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Against the rules, poor etiquette, or totally fine? (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter LotsOfChips
- Start date
moose
4 of a Kind
What? Corey shows his hand ALL THE TIME.
That's true. I feel like he's allowed though. When you play every hand, it doesn't matter much.
Talrem
Two Pair
I’ll throw my two cents in…
I believe that “one person per hand” is an eternal poker law that has existed since the beginning of time. There are rules that are “givens” - already known and not needed to be mentioned because all players follow and uphold them. It’s something you should enforce in a game because you don’t want something like this to happen:
Player X has a habit of showing their cards to people, usually when folding, but it encourages others to do the same with him. If one of Player X’s family members, or someone else that knows them, is sitting next to Player X and is contemplating their move, they’ll turn to Player X and ask “What would you do?” which is total bullshit, especially because others allow it.
Showing cards only to neighboring players sets a bad precedent for conduct at the table and opens the door for others to do other inappropriate things/break the given rules. If you’re playing in a family game where nobody gives a crap about formal poker rule/etiquette then show all you want, but not in a game where serious money is involved.
I believe that “one person per hand” is an eternal poker law that has existed since the beginning of time. There are rules that are “givens” - already known and not needed to be mentioned because all players follow and uphold them. It’s something you should enforce in a game because you don’t want something like this to happen:
Player X has a habit of showing their cards to people, usually when folding, but it encourages others to do the same with him. If one of Player X’s family members, or someone else that knows them, is sitting next to Player X and is contemplating their move, they’ll turn to Player X and ask “What would you do?” which is total bullshit, especially because others allow it.
Showing cards only to neighboring players sets a bad precedent for conduct at the table and opens the door for others to do other inappropriate things/break the given rules. If you’re playing in a family game where nobody gives a crap about formal poker rule/etiquette then show all you want, but not in a game where serious money is involved.
This is the second worst thing, when people cite something (rule) that is wrong, and they don't understand why the rule exists. The thing that bothers me the most is no consistency with 'rules'.
Rabbit hunting, I'm okay with it some of the time, every hand bothers me, but when the house says No rabbit hunting and then asks for it drives me nuts!
Rules that everyone should understand: <-- Maybe this could be its own thread.
Boxed cards vs exposed cards, cards that are flipped up from the dealer always are replaced (exposed).
Flopping the flop / turn / river too soon.
What is considered a dead or mucked hand.
Order of showdown.
I think maybe that’s part of the difficulty of this thread. The OP seems to want there to be a rule against this behavior, but doesn’t seem to know why - I can appreciate “I don’t like it,” but that’s not a reason for a rule. Or at least not a good one.
"You show one, you show all".
Showing your cards provides information about how you play, and it's not fair to provide that information to anybody but the full crew.
Let alone that the person being shown the cards might instinctively raise an eyebrow or something, influencing the course of the current hand being played.
Showing your cards provides information about how you play, and it's not fair to provide that information to anybody but the full crew.
Let alone that the person being shown the cards might instinctively raise an eyebrow or something, influencing the course of the current hand being played.
LotsOfChips
Flush
Not sure if I said (or implied) that I want a special new rule against this, was more asking if the OPTAH rule applies in this situation.
And I thought that I did state a reason that I didn’t like it. Some players get information about betting habits that other players don’t, and as others have said, it can possibly lead to other sloppy behaviour.
But if there’s no discussion or comment by the folded player, then is it really a violation of the OPTAH rule? Maybe, maybe not. I’m not the host at this game, so I’m not going to impose house rules here, and in the grand scheme of things it’s not a huge issue.
Perhaps the suggestion to ask to see the cards at the end of the hand (citing “show one, show all”) would be appropriate action, or as others suggested, simply accept it and chill (probably what I’ll do here).
But I think that when I do get the opportunity to host, the house rule will probably be “no showing live hands to folded players “.
Right, I’m just not sure if that fairness argument (about information) is appropriate in a cash game setting. It sounds more like a tournament concept to me. And though I’m persuaded by @Machine argument that it’s a cash game rule to prevent collusion, I can’t exactly put into words why.
I’m just happy to learn what, if anything, different sets of rules say about this concept, without reading them all. (I have read Robert’s Rules but it’s been a while)
OK, am I missing something? The way I read the OP, Players A and B are buds. Player A is folding, but flashes his cards to player B (in a "aw, I had a crazy draw"). However, player B is still in the hand?
Hell no!!!!
It has happened on occasion in my game when a player make a tough fold, and inadvertently flashes their cards to someone who is still in the hand. This is how we handled it. The table protested (almost in unison), explaining that player B is still in the hand and just got free info. So, player A's hand is exposed for all players to have the same info, and player A is warned. In our circumstance, it was an honest error.
In other games, if you insist on the cards being turned up for all to see right away, it sends a message that player A messed up, and hopefully they don't do it in the future.
If this occurs without providing in play advantages during a hand (showing a "fold" to an already folded player), it's not as egregious IMHO, but people can ask what was showed, and SOSA applies.
Hell no!!!!
It has happened on occasion in my game when a player make a tough fold, and inadvertently flashes their cards to someone who is still in the hand. This is how we handled it. The table protested (almost in unison), explaining that player B is still in the hand and just got free info. So, player A's hand is exposed for all players to have the same info, and player A is warned. In our circumstance, it was an honest error.
In other games, if you insist on the cards being turned up for all to see right away, it sends a message that player A messed up, and hopefully they don't do it in the future.
If this occurs without providing in play advantages during a hand (showing a "fold" to an already folded player), it's not as egregious IMHO, but people can ask what was showed, and SOSA applies.
LotsOfChips
Flush
No, the other way around…. Player A is still in the hand, but shows his hand to Player B (who has already folded), they exchange a look, then Player A makes some comment like “well with a hand like this, I have to play”, and then raises something like 5x the previous bet.
What you described is flagrantly illegal. My description, I’m not so sure.
Here’s something that’s been gnawing at me. You say there are three of them, and they’re good players and they’re good friends and they all sit next to each other.
I don’t ever want the two best players at the table on my immediate left (or my right, for that matter.).
So my first (and nicest) reaction is that they’re not that good. Because if they were that good and they were the best at the table, they’d probably want to spread themselves out.
So then I have to wonder, are they working together. But if they’re good abd they’re working together (cheating) there are much better ways of doing it than sitting next to one another.
And if they are working together, trying to get an edge by showing each other their cards, then they’re not that good (or at least not very smart.
All I can say about this is that I’d take it back to one of my initial comments on this thread - that there should be a random seating draw, which is totally normal for a tournament.
LotsOfChips
Flush
Table seating is random (draw cards), but with 6-9 players, it is pretty likely that two of them end up beside each other at least some of the time. Doing a non-random seating to ensure they are separated seems impractical.
They aren’t trying to cheat (IMO), and they aren’t super good players, but they are better than several others in the group, or at least more knowledgeable, and definitely more aggressive.
And showing cards isn’t about trying to get an edge (at least I don’t think). But as mentioned, if Player B sees Player A raise pre-flop with 67s (for example) and induce a fold while everyone else assumes Player A is holding premium cards, well that is information that can be useful later on. I agree that it is stupid for Player A to give away that type of information, but if he is going to do so, then IMO everyone at the table should have access to that information, not just his friends.
Or maybe I’m off base here.
Players should never be allowed to selectively show cards, folded or live, to others (spectators or players, with live hands or already folded) during a live hand-in-progress, or even after it concludes. OPTAH - if followed, always, there will never arise any issues or misunderstandings.
Only by trying to specify when it's okay to do so, does problems and potential problems arise. For consistency and issue-avoidance, it should never be allowed -- and if done (intentionally or accidentally), the show-all rule applies, either immediately or after play concludes, no exceptions.
Only by trying to specify when it's okay to do so, does problems and potential problems arise. For consistency and issue-avoidance, it should never be allowed -- and if done (intentionally or accidentally), the show-all rule applies, either immediately or after play concludes, no exceptions.
Amen.
Reading through the posts again, I can't help but think of the underlying premise of all rules. To promote the best interest of the spirit of the game.
I get principles, but it's a 20 dollar shootout, and typically the spirit of this game is to have a good time - maybe try to let go, I bet if at the end of the hand, you ask what the player had, I bet they will include you in the side convo.
Not to say the convo is furious because of stakes, it's a good thread. Ask the host to pick up some quality beer and drink till it doesn't bother you. By that time you've paid for the beer and the poker is free.
I get principles, but it's a 20 dollar shootout, and typically the spirit of this game is to have a good time - maybe try to let go, I bet if at the end of the hand, you ask what the player had, I bet they will include you in the side convo.
Not to say the convo is furious because of stakes, it's a good thread. Ask the host to pick up some quality beer and drink till it doesn't bother you. By that time you've paid for the beer and the poker is free.
If they dont give any advice in any way - that is not OPTAH violation. They just know his cards. If they play a lot together and are better players, they probably know others game so they not gaining lot of info. Show one, show all rule gives you rigth to ask to see players cards, but its a weekly tournament so after some time you will also know how they play. I dont see big problem there.
ekricket
Royal Flush
Make a rule that says all cards that are folded must be folded face up.
See how they like that kind of information flowing around.
CrazyEddie
Full House
The TDA rules are of the opinion that the mere act of showing another person - any person - your cards is a violation of OPTAH:
I respectfully disagree. Enforcing "don't show your hand to anyone, ever" makes it logistically easier to prevent OPTAH, but merely showing your hand to someone who is not in the hand doesn't violate OPTAH if they do not in turn provide you with any information, advice, or commentary.
TDA rules don't include "Show one, show all." However, Robert's Rules does:
Here again, I respectfully disagree. First, note that strictly speaking RR doesn't address showing your hand to a spectator. Second, I contend that "players are entitled to receive equal access to information about the contents of another player's hand" is only valid for players still in the hand. If a card is exposed, either deliberately or accidentally, to a player still in the hand then fairness dictates that the card be exposed to all other players still in the hand. But fairness considerations are moot outside of the context of the live hand. Showing a card to spectators can't affect the game, assuming OPTAH is adhered to, so showing a card to a spectator doesn't then mandate that it be shown to anyone else at any time, whether immediately or after the hand. Ditto with showing a card to a folded player, and ditto with showing a card to anyone at all once the hand is over.
Now, you certainly might like to know what was in someone's hand, so that you can use that information in later hands. But you're not entitled to that information. A player who wants to claim a contested pot must of course show his hand, but otherwise a player who mucks his hand is entitled to keep it a secret. But it's his secret to keep, and if he wants to share that secret with someone - if he wants to tell his buddies what he had and not tell you - then that's entirely within his rights. I see no reason why that shouldn't also apply to showing someone his cards rather than simply telling someone about it afterwards.
So, in short, regarding the OP's situation - while TDA rules say you can't show your cards to folded players next to you, and Robert's Rules say that if you do then you should reveal your hand to everyone when the betting is complete, in my opinion it's not at all a violation of the principles or spirit of poker and there's no compelling reason to forbid it.
... in my opinion.
67: No Disclosure. One Player to a Hand
[..]
One-player-to-a-hand is in effect. Among other things, this rule prohibits showing a hand to or discussing strategy with another player, advisor, or spectator.
I respectfully disagree. Enforcing "don't show your hand to anyone, ever" makes it logistically easier to prevent OPTAH, but merely showing your hand to someone who is not in the hand doesn't violate OPTAH if they do not in turn provide you with any information, advice, or commentary.
TDA rules don't include "Show one, show all." However, Robert's Rules does:
6. Show one, show all. Players are entitled to receive equal access to information about the contents of another player’s hand. After a deal, if cards are shown to another player, every player at the table has a right to see those cards. [..] If the player who saw the cards is not involved in the deal, or cannot use the information in wagering, the information should be withheld until the betting is over, so it does not affect the normal outcome of the deal. [..]
Here again, I respectfully disagree. First, note that strictly speaking RR doesn't address showing your hand to a spectator. Second, I contend that "players are entitled to receive equal access to information about the contents of another player's hand" is only valid for players still in the hand. If a card is exposed, either deliberately or accidentally, to a player still in the hand then fairness dictates that the card be exposed to all other players still in the hand. But fairness considerations are moot outside of the context of the live hand. Showing a card to spectators can't affect the game, assuming OPTAH is adhered to, so showing a card to a spectator doesn't then mandate that it be shown to anyone else at any time, whether immediately or after the hand. Ditto with showing a card to a folded player, and ditto with showing a card to anyone at all once the hand is over.
Now, you certainly might like to know what was in someone's hand, so that you can use that information in later hands. But you're not entitled to that information. A player who wants to claim a contested pot must of course show his hand, but otherwise a player who mucks his hand is entitled to keep it a secret. But it's his secret to keep, and if he wants to share that secret with someone - if he wants to tell his buddies what he had and not tell you - then that's entirely within his rights. I see no reason why that shouldn't also apply to showing someone his cards rather than simply telling someone about it afterwards.
So, in short, regarding the OP's situation - while TDA rules say you can't show your cards to folded players next to you, and Robert's Rules say that if you do then you should reveal your hand to everyone when the betting is complete, in my opinion it's not at all a violation of the principles or spirit of poker and there's no compelling reason to forbid it.
... in my opinion.
Fwiw, I respectfully disagree with your opinions stated above. The existing rules are in place for very valid reasons, and should be followed.... imo.
I also think that rules can be applied when there is a declaration that game will follow specific set of rules. From OP i guess there was no such thing. For that reason, strict interpretation (word by word) of one or the other rules set has no ground. Of course, OPTAH and show one, show all are unwritten rules of poker. They defend the value of fair game. In this case, if players dont gain unfair advantage, i see no violation.
Agreed. The act of showing your cards to anyone else during the play of the hand opens up all sorts of opportunities for collusion, verbal or otherwise.
I have no idea why you'd want to allow that...
First of all, no rules are broken as long as the folded player(s) don't offer any advise, visually or orally.
Show one, show all is a tournament rule that you can "exploit", but before you do - consider this;
Why is this a problem? It tilts you, but so what? If I hate pink shirts, I can't construe some rule to enforce it. They don't seem to be good players, and raising any two is hardly a strategy that you can't take advantage of, so why do you want them to stop playing poorly? Or make them gun for you?
It doesn’t just show the folded player what his buddy has. It also reveals what the rest of the table *doesn’t* have.
OK, I know, it’s “just” two out of 52 cards. Plus the two he folded.
But over the course of a night, and regular games, that actually is a lot of bonus info which a smart player can actually learn from. It helps one to slowly amass better profiles of what ranges others play.
(For example: I fold Q3o Buddy shows AT off and raises. If a limper then folds, I can infer it was less likely that he limped with Ax and Broadway combos, since three of those were out of his distribution. If later he calls a raise with Ax or QJ and it gets to showdown, maybe I start to think his limping range is heavy on middling suited connectors/small pairs. I start to narrow this with more observations, aided by seeing extra cards from my neighbor… Obviously you can’t say for sure from any one hand. But over dozens of hands per game multiplied by dozens of sessions, it can help.)
Whether anyone is thinking this way in a $20 tourney, I dunno.
Ben8257
Royal Flush
Can't believe for some reason I just read this entire thread... been to 6 meet ups this year, play cards with tons of PCF members on a regular basis... showing a folded player live cards happens at every single game I have played in. As long as nothing is said nor advice given. I couldn't care less. BTW I am absolutely always guilty of this. Never been called on it, shown the host 1000 plus hands, including some true veterans that are highly respected within the community and they have done the same.
Talking about a live hand, absolutely not, showing folded cards to a live player again absolutely not. Flipping up the corner of your cards and showing someone else with no info... like it or not it happens ALL the time!
Guess it's just another topic to bitch about. If you don't want it in your game shut that shit down! But please don't open another thread about "how do I find more players for my game" when people don't want to listen to your rules and feel like they are cornered in some super strict high stakes WSOP event!
Sure there are people that do this for a living, but most of us just want to play poker for fun! How can I make such broad claims? Again I have probably met more forum members in the last year than most of you ever will.
Loosen your belt, clouds are cool! Try to just enjoy a game rather than being on a power trip. Especially when we are talking about $20 tourneys with noobs and family members which many of us here host these type of games.
BTW often I have found those that try to "enforce rules" typically only occurs when it is convenient for them. Would be nice if they allowed to all but then again life isn't always fair now is it.
Talking about a live hand, absolutely not, showing folded cards to a live player again absolutely not. Flipping up the corner of your cards and showing someone else with no info... like it or not it happens ALL the time!
Guess it's just another topic to bitch about. If you don't want it in your game shut that shit down! But please don't open another thread about "how do I find more players for my game" when people don't want to listen to your rules and feel like they are cornered in some super strict high stakes WSOP event!
Sure there are people that do this for a living, but most of us just want to play poker for fun! How can I make such broad claims? Again I have probably met more forum members in the last year than most of you ever will.
Loosen your belt, clouds are cool! Try to just enjoy a game rather than being on a power trip. Especially when we are talking about $20 tourneys with noobs and family members which many of us here host these type of games.
BTW often I have found those that try to "enforce rules" typically only occurs when it is convenient for them. Would be nice if they allowed to all but then again life isn't always fair now is it.
Here's a high stakes WSOP event where Scotty Nguyen shows his hole cards to everybody on the rail. At 7:12, if it doesn't start there.
Remember the Cubans?
There's a huge difference between a home game or meet-up where you know everyone, and a random table in a casino, probably for higher stakes. I would assume we're talking about the casino environment here, not a home game or meet-up.
Besides, we all assume you and Brie have some telepathic means of communication anyway...
Rakrul
Straight
Seeing as they will raise any two, I don't see this a problem. Actually, regardless of this - I don't see how a folded player can benefit from this. Even if he holds the same hand as the live player, he can't eliminate that another player has one (or both') of those cards. The only thing he can eliminate is quads, nut flush and some straight flushes.
What other players play, especially at this level, depend more on what mood they're in than rather than what they're actually holding, position, stack size and bet size. For elite players at nosebleed stakes - sure, someone can benefit from it but I refuse to accept your premise here.
That’s maybe because you completely missed the point.
I was talking about the advantage that repeatedly seeing/knowing extra cards can confer over time in developing player profiles—for example in understanding players’ ranges, not for one hand you’ve folded.
Read it again.
Rakrul
Straight
Back at you, bud. If it can't help him in any single hand, how can it help over multiple hands?
Or are you referring to profiling the player showing his hand? In that case, I'm pretty sure they've played against each other so many times that he's showing to tell him "look at this garbage I'm playing since all these guys suck".
I would love to play against a full ring of players like you.
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